my Onc positively encouraged a strict low GI diet and a supplement of D3/Mag/Calcium once active treatment was over, so there are some out there that are interested!
I’m struggling with the ‘strict’ bit, however have started with the Flaxseeds which I have ground and sprinkled on cereal most days.
[I am on Letrozole/Femara and ER 8/8 PR 6/8].
Peachez - don’t beat yourself up over the strict bit - you’ll be doing far more than most people. My onc is also very encouraging about my diet - she seems to be treating me as a bit of an experiment for lots of things, so I hope the results aren’t disappointing.
Hi peachez, I think that if you change your diet in stages you’re far more likely to make permanent changes. Also, your body and mind need time to adjust, so I think you’re doing fine. If you read all this thread (you’ll need a free month to do it in now!) You’ll see that most people have done this.
Frances, I’m convinced by the links between metabolic disease and cancer. I put a link on here a few pages back for the reverse diabetes diet book, makes a lot of sense to me and explains the principles clearly.
Everyone, thanks so much for the researching and detective work, its fascinating and incredibly useful. The great thing about this thread is the way in which so many people from disparate backgrounds have managed to collate such a vast area of research, to question it and to navigate a sensible route through. And still there’s more! I look forward to my daily fix and am wholly incapable of weaning myself. You are all stars!
Oh yes.
Gradual changes. Just like giving up coffee, for example, and going cold turkey with the caffeine withdrawal. I’ve seen colleagues be rather ill doing that.
Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
Oestrogen in milk.
This has been bugging me since I learnt that cows are now milked during a lot of their continuous pregnancies when their hormone levels are higher. The only info I’ve found is at this link foodmagazine.org.uk/articles/milk_oestrogen/ but I can’t find any research into levels of hormones in dairy products.
If there is any oestrogen and progesterone in dairy products I think it is amoral for the medics to ignore that aspect of diet when treating those who have had ER+ or PR+ cancers.
Mekalar - don’t know why but I assumed you were Turkish! Probably your user name and, as you say, you look Mediterranean. I’m like you, dark hair and eyes and olive skin.
Peachez - agree with what the others have said. Any dietary change for the better is good so don’t be too hard on yourself. you can build on the changes over time.
Vit D levels blood test - that’s surprisingly expensive. I think if I have it done, it will be in the winter. Elinda x
Surfie - I don’t think there’s any doubt that there is oestrogen and progesterone in dairy products. I think the argument by the dairy industry is that they are not harmful and are broken down during digestion.
These hormones will of course be at low levels and therefore may not increase risk of breast cancer. My concern is for those of us diagnosed with breast cancer, particularly for those with evidence of disease. I can’t see any testing to see the effect of having dairy products and tumour growth/or not.
This article is about animal products: meat and dairy which you’ll see is not conclusive but nevertheless interesting:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19904296
This academic article is quite surprising (Milk - the promoter of chronic Western diseases) and is about milk products and IGF-1, could explain a lot:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19232475
Another fascinating article on tofu and IGF-1. Clearly the whole IGF-1 thing is highly complex:
Elinda, the whole IGF thing is far too complex and I can’t get my head around that.
Funny that we were prescribed HRT to take by mouth and the hormones in that aren’t broken down by the digestive system.
I just seethe because I am suffering the side effects of aromatase inhibitors to stop my fat from making oestrogen, yet I haven’t been advised to avoid similar hormones in for example milk fat.
(I was an overweight organic icecream addict for several years before diagnosis and cutting out dairy has been difficult.)
lol elinda thats another one to the long list ive been thought of being :)) xxx
Hi Daisygirl I think my onc thinks im trouble I went in with another well planned list of questions when I said Id got lots of questions he said not again you bombarded me last time hahaha, he’s cheeky but in a nice way tells it as it is no if’s but’s or maybe’s and yet he makes you feel that your health is important to him. I bummped into him in the corridor at my pre-rad appointment only ever met him once before yet he said my name & said hello see you in a few minuets which I thought was really nice.
Mekala x
Hi Surfie
I don’t think we will get reliable information on how much oestrogen and progesterone is in milk and dairy products - it would vary depending on how each herd is raised and fed, and even from cow to cow from day to day. Plus the dairy industry certainly has no interest in telling us!
But we do know without any doubt that milk does contain oestrogen and progesterone because of the various studies that measured human serum oe and pr levels before and after drinking milk, and found it produced a significant spike in levels of both hormones. That also proves it is not broken down during digestion as the dairy industry continues to claim, otherwise it would be found in urine but not in the bloodstream. Several studies have shown this effect - here is one of them:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19496976
It makes me mad as well. It’s a personal choice whether to consume dairy or not, but I think it is very wrong that this information is not available to all. Many women suffer hell with their hormone drugs - but don’t realise every time they have a latte they are taking in oestrogen. But at least if they are pre-menopausal the tamoxifen might protect them, even though we know for quite a few it doesn’t work. But for post-menopausal women, AI’s don’t work on circulating oestrogen at all. So if like me you have secondaries, and are ER+ve and post-menopausal - eating dairy is literally feeding your cancer. Grrrr.
Thanks Finty,
That is the sort of study I wanted to see. I found myself trying to explain to my daughter why I was not eating dairy and I lacked enough convincing facts.
Every person diagnosed with ER+ or PR+ cancer should be informed that modern dairy can contain these hormones - then they can make their own decision.
GRRRR!
Elinda - very interesting link showing that soy seems to lower IGF 1.
^
Hi mel
There are several separate issues - it is confusing! There is a growth hormone (recombitant bovine growth hormone) given to mainly US cattle that is banned here, but that’s not what we are talking about.
All animal products raise levels of IGF 1 in humans to some degree, because IGF 1 is raised by amino acids, which is what proteins are made of. But IGF 1 is raised more by a specific type of amino acid (aromatic, rather than branched-chain), which is the type dairy is particularly rich in. The main information we have for this came from the EPIC study on UK vegans, so would not have included any US products. We know from that study that people eating no animal proteins have a lower level of IGF 1 than all other diet types (about 13%) but also a much higher level of IGF1 Binding Protein 3 (over 40%). This is significant because the binding protein locks up IGF 1 and makes it inactive. So it is axiomatic that if not eating dairy and meat lowers IGF 1, the converse must be true - eating dairy and meat raises IGF 1 levels.
That’s probably more info than you wanted - but does that explain it at all?
Also, this is completely separate from the issue of oestrogen and progesterone in dairy (and to a lesser extent meat) products - which is also nothing to do with the hormones banned in the UK.
finty x
Hi All,
Unfortunately much more research is still needed to clarify the importance of IGF-I so we don’t know yet if there is much truth in this hypothesis.
We of course also need to remeber that many things raise IGF-I levels ,Factors that are known to cause variation in the levels of IGF-1 in the circulation include an individuals genetic make-up, the time of day, their age, sex, exercise status, stress levels, genetics, nutrition level and body mass index (BMI), disease state, race, estrogen status and xenobiotic intake.
cancerhelp.org.uk/about-cancer/cancer-questions/can-the-hormones-in-milk-affect-breast-cancer
I was recently reading about Food to fight Cancer on the CRUK Cancer Chat forums, the moderators posted this re considering any ALT diets.
cancerhelp.org.uk/coping-with-cancer/coping-physically/diet/managing/alternative-cancer-diets.
x
^
Mel - unfortunately the cows producing organic milk are also milked intensively through 6 months of their pregnancy, so it doesn’t make any difference to the hormones and I’m not sure they are necessarily treated much better. Although there are obviously restrictions on their feed, I don’t know if that affects their wellbeing or not. You’re right - there is something very, very wrong with the way we farm most animals here. I’m glad you don’t eat much dairy.
fintyx
For those that want to have dairy, from what I’ve seen in various studies low-fat is better. Organic, yes definitely.
Mel - I didn’t see that programme but they do things on such a massive scale out there don’t they. They even do large scale beekeeping too which really surprised me.
Finty - the tofu study was a surprise wasn’t it.
The paper on milk I cited earlier was interesting too. Especially the hypothesis that:
‘Milk protein consumption induces postprandial hyperinsulinaemia and shifts the growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) axis to permanently increased IGF-1 serum levels.’
I had to look up postprandial and it means after eating. I can’t really understand this as it then talks about a permanent increase. Is this permanent or long-term? Maybe I’m being thick today, I am very tired.
It is true, from what I’ve read that more evidence is needed to be conclusive about the role of dietary IGF-1. Given we don’t have that yet, we all need to make a personal choice about what we eat and drink and also how much.
Elinda x