There’s a major fault with the Harvard study - the cohort was actually eating even more protein than the US national average - so they studied minor differences in a cohort eating massive amounts of protein. They had switched to low fat protein, but increased their intake. Campbell actually has a whole section on the design faults in the Harvard study. If however, they had compared the cohort to anyone not eating animal protein it would have been interesting.
This is a non research ramble.
I’ve now read the China Study. Fantastic! A thoughtful man with no axe to grind summarising his life’s work with some insights as to why diet as a treatment for chronic Western disease is a non starter against all the vested interests! I felt he had a slight sense of bitterness about that.
To me as a lay person he made very good sense and I have decided I have nothing to lose by trying to cut out animal protein from my diet and keep my intake of plant protein to between 10 and 20% of calories. In the last year I have already cut down animal protein because of all I’ve read on osteoporosis but I feel I have to go a bit further. I don’t have another DEXA scan until next year but my lumbar region certainly feels better.
Since I was twenty I have eaten homemade wholemeal bread and wholemeal pasta, brown rice and loads of vegetables. I’ve rarely eaten out or bought ready to eat food.
I’ve always been interested in diet because most of my life I’ve had bad indigestion and IBS symptoms - rather belatedly I’ve found out my stomach just can’t cope with large meals! My ‘stop I’m full’ mechanism kicks in far too late! I’m also very sensitive to caffeine and that has taken years to discover and sort out. Violent heart pains and headaches being constant companions for years.
For about 10 years until my mid forties I followed fairly closely the Pritikin diet (mentioned in the book) – no added sugar or salt, low fat dairy and only 10% of calories to be from fat. I held a steady slim weight with no effort. Then I moved countries and let ice-cream and cream and roast dinners enter my diet as well as 3 years HRT (tablets MsMolly) and my weight rocketed by 3 stone in that crucial post menopause period.
My mother had a bad heart attack when she was only 3 years older than I am now, so until BC raised its ugly head I’ve been more concerned about heart health! I keep pretty fit by walking but I still have marginally high blood pressure – although it has reduced since I’ve cut out dairy and lost some weight and although I am now just in the normal BMI range I need to lose another stone.
After a mini stroke probably caused by Tamoxifen I am supposed to get my cholesterol down – even though it was last year already slightly below average - or take statins which I am very reluctant to do. I was gobsmacked by the lowest cholesterol levels reported in the China study.
On the cancer front I’ve discovered that my paternal grandmother had some sort of cancer – breast or uterus - and my father had prostate cancer – both in their early 40’s. Neither of them died of cancer but there could be some genetic link there. I can’t help thinking that I might have been diagnosed with a larger cancer much earlier had I not had those ten years of good diet.
I don’t see how anyone now could do a diet study as comprehensive as the China study as almost all nations seem to have moved towards a western diet. The dairy industry has taken over the country of my birth and most of the produce is exported to China!
Anyway I’ve ferreted out my Pritikin and vegetarian cookbooks for some new ideas!
Finty and Elinda - good to see you back from the gulags.
Are you still on some kind of time delay?
Lemongrove - I know little about bone mets other than it is similar to osteoporosis in creating “swiss cheese” effect. So I would think that bone replacement would be a good thing not a bad thing. I’d like to know how the whole bone tumour thing works in association with bisphosphonates (Finty?)
Finty - that was just a quick 10mins spent on PubMed before bed - and a note of the batch of “no link to dairy” data that is mounting up.
The Norwegian study - nearly 65,000 women over 10 years is impressive. And of course the Chinese - long held as the exemplars for dairy-free existence - are also publishing studies asserting that there is no link between dairy and BC. Surely there has to come a point when we can stop pouring research dollars into this area and get on with other stuff.
Surfie - who on earth prescribed you HRT pills in this day and age? Oral HRT had a high risk of strokes - more likely to have been that than Tamoxifen.
MsMolly,
The HRT tablets were provided by my GP about 1995 to 1998.
I had the ministroke about 9 weeks into Tamoxifen in 2010 and my surgeon certainly thought it was the tamoxifen. I went through all sorts of tests and they couldn’t find anything else.
How horrible for you Surfie - I mentioned the HRT risk because I know that oral HRT carried a 30% increased risk of strokes. If you were menopausal why did they opt for Tamoxifen rather than AIs? (If you don’t mind me asking!)
Yes I was well and truly menopausal at 65! The surgeon suggested tamoxifen for two and a half years and then a switch to an AI for another two and a half years.
I suspect they don’t like prescribing AIs for too long because they do increase osteoporosis. I was given a dexa bone scan as soon as being prescribed the AI and I already had osteoporosis of the lumbar region.
Hi Surfie,
Before you conclude that Professor Campbell is a thoughtful man with no axe to grind you might like to look at the following article about the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (which Prof Campbell is Chairperson of). The article alledges that the above Organization has links to animal rights groups. I don’t know if these allegations are true, but it’s worth looking at.
activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/23
Also when you say you have nothing to lose by cutting out animal protein, how do you know that? The World Health Organization has reported that stomach cancer and protein malnutrition is much higher in China than the US, Europe or the eastern mediterranean - so that doesn’t sound too healthy to me.
If it’s the size of the China study that convinces you of the link between diet and cancer, try looking at the EPIC study of dietary habits in Europe (which I understand is the biggest study ever conducted), because that concluded there is no link between diet and breast cancer.
Lemongrove stomach cancer is linked to countries were food storage is an issue - where pickled foods are eaten in large quantities and foods that grow moulds in inadequate storage - that would obviously not be the case for anyone following a low animal protein diet in the uk. As for protein malnutrition - again not a problem here for anyone who knows even the basics about good nutrition.
I am still being moderated so don’t intend to post her much again. I would only add that if you want a study that compares diets and includes data for low animal protein consumption, then the china Study is the only one that I am aware of - and it it the most comprehensive diet study ever undertaken (not the largest, the most comprehensive). Studies of western diets are pretty hopeless in coming to any conclusion about the benefits of limiting animal protein, since there is no cohort under study that eats such a diet. This was the problem with EPIC - simply comparing very small variations in a typical western diet that is high in protein and fat and low in fibre, fruit and vegetables doesn’t tell you very much at all - other than that cancer rates are very high in countries that eat this diet.
Very interesting Lemongrove - 95% of PCRM have no medical qualifications! Why doesn’t that surprise me in the slightest!
Particularly interesting bit -
“Much of Campbell’s objection to a non-vegetarian diet stems from his concerns over the presence of dioxin in meats. Good thing, then, that Campbell is Chairman and CEO of Paracelsian, Inc. His company sells testing equipment and methods for detecting dioxins, and is actively pressing the case for its own dioxin screening tests to be adopted as the national standard. Much of the company’s profit, though, seems to derive from its “natural foods” side business, which operates under the name “New Century Nutrition.” New Century’s web site is hosted by Jeff Nelson’s “VegSource” empire.”
And interesting (slightly disturbing) too that he chose to call his company Paracelsian - after Paracelsius and Paracelsianism.
A quick hunt for his Paracelsian company reveals nothing but dead websites. Are we to assume it went bust?
Wow look! I can become a nutrition expert too - all from the comfort of my own computer.
ecornell.com/certificate-programs/co-branded-programs-training/certificate-in-plant-based-nutrition/crt/TCCC01
In fact I think I will set up my own foundation, link it to a college and flog my own certificates just like the Prof is doing.
Yes, still be moderated so I’m not posting much at the moment.
I’ve had a look at the studies and they are very interesting. I’ve seen most of them except the earlier one before. The metanalysis shows that total dairy intake not milk has an inverse association with reduced risk of breast cancer particularly low fat dairy is interesting. We have discussed this previously and wonder whether this is something to do with fermentation of milk for yoghurt (we looked at research on pubmed that suggested this could possibly have a role). The other thing is whether those women were generally adopting a healthier lifestyle - more low fat foods, low alcohol, more exercise etc.
All of those studies relate to risk of getting breast cancer. The oestrogen and progesterone in dairy products will be low compared to a woman’s circulating oestrogen and progesterone. I can see it might make sense that these would not increase risk of breast cancer even in looking at a number of years. However, I would be more interested in looking at lifetime risk. In most of these studies, from what I’ve read, the women involved in teh studies are from North America, Canada and western Europe - all places where we know the chances of getting breast cancer is high.
The most interesting study to me therefore is the one based in China. As we know that in China dairy consumption is low, this study potentially compares those that eat dairy with those that don’t. Unfortunately, I can’t find anywhere to access the full report without a paywall. I would like to see how much dairy these women ate and what they ate and whether there was a comparison with a no dairy group.
As we know, for most women our own circulating oestrogen is a good thing BUT not when we get an ER+ breast cancer. I still therefore would like to know more about the ways that milk (and dairy products) raise our blood serum levels of various hormones. It may be low and not matter to a woman without breast cancer but for those of us with taking tamoxifen, AIs or having finished those treatments it is potentially significant.
I am also very curious as to why women are sometimes told not to eat or to be wary of phyto oestrogen intake. A large study on soy found that women who ate it had a reduced risk of recurrance and death yet we never see that in the advice. Why? - because some in vitro studies and some studies on rats have shown that certain things such as isoflavones and soy milk can stimulate breast tumours growth (other studies have shown the opposite with isoflavones). I’ve not seen any similar studies conducted with dairy products.
That’s why I find all this so confusing. Elinda x
Finty, I disagree that the EPIC study is flawed in the way you suggest. You say “studies of western diets are pretty hopeless in coming to any conclusion about the benefits of limiting animal protein, since there is no cohort under study that eats such a diet. This was the problem with EPIC - simply comparing very small variations in a typical western diet that is high in protein and fat and low in fibre, fruit and vegetables doesn’t tell you very much at all - other than that cancer rates are very high in countries that eat this diet”. This seems wrong to me, because the EPIC study looked at many different European Countries, and a wide variety of diets (not small as you say). Yes EPIC looked at Countries that consume a high fat/sugar, low fibre diets, but it also looked at countries consuming the mediterranean diet - which as you know is high in fruit/veg, and low in saturated fat/sugar, and yet it still concluded that diet has no influence on breast cancer.
The mediterranean diet is of course generally acknowledged to be the healthiest (and no doubt it is), but if it had any influence on breast cancer you would expect the EPIC study to pick up on that - and they didn’t.
MSMolly I think the certificate idea is brilliant. Just think of how many books we’ll be able to write on the strength of our fabulous credentials (I can hear the till in Waterstones ringing even as I write).
During my student days, part of my course involved studying Japan a little bit, so could I have a certificate that describes me as a leading expert on Japanese diet please ?.
I’m not sure that I understand why the fact he is involved in equipment and methods to detect dioxins is an issue? As I understand it, he was one of the people who first identified dioxins back in the early 1960s. They are an important issue - see WHO website or the dioxin problem in Germany earlier this year.
I don’t know if Dr Campbell owns Paracelsian, he is a board member (not CEO)and teh company is still going:
investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=342170
It sounds as though I’m defending him. I haven’t read his book yet and I don’t know much about him. All I’m saying is that it’s easy to find the dirt or positive things on anyone on the internet and we don’t know what is true and what isn’t.
Surfie - very sorry to hear what happened when you were on tamoxifen. Blood clots and strokes are a recognised serious side effect of tamoxifen. You may find this research reassuring:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21343938
It concludes: ‘In an adjuvant setting, tamoxifen was associated with an increased risk of cerebrovascular disease during treatment, but a decreased risk in the post-treatment period.’
Msmolly - I was given HRT even though i wasn’t menopausal (possibly premenopausal) as I was having such severe, daily headaches which they thought were hormonal. The result - 6 weeks later I went from not being able to feel any lumps in my breast (I did a check) to having an 8cm x 6cm lobular cancer. obviously the cancer was already there but the HRT was like putting petrol onto a fire.
My neighbour is still getting HRT prescriptions at age 70 and has been on it for 22 years! Shocking!
For info - Those of being moderated have our postings inserted in the time we made them so due to the time delay some are getting slotted in before other comments already showing up on the thread.
If you look at the internals of EPIC you will find a different story. For instance on fruit and vegetables. It found no benefit to eating f & V, and yet if you look at the actually amounts consumed in most countries, it amounted to little more than one serving a day! Little doubt that they found this conferred no health benefit. The same is the case for animal protein - however the protein was made up, the countries in EPIC were consuming much larger quantities than the amount the China Study identified as a risk factor. There were only 93 vegans included in the 500,000+ EPIC cohort - and they gave no outcomes for this group - hence no usable comparison. They did however find they had much lower levels of IGF 1 and much higher levels of the IGF1 binding protein - this is my main concern.
The quote about Campbell being concerned about dioxins in meat completely misrepresents his views - that isn’t his main concern at all.
Elinda, I don’t think the comments made about Professor Campbell are intended to be derogatory. I think people are just pointing out that these matters could influence his advocacy of vegetarianism.
The article I mentioned earlier alleges that the Physicians Committee for Responsible medicine (which Prof Campbell Chairs), has links to Animal rights groups. Obviously there is nothing unlawful, or wrong about that, but it does suggest there could be a moral objective.
If people dismiss research and opinions with connections to the dairy industry beause they have a vested interest and commercial stake in the outcome - then surely the same rules should apply to everyone.
Whether someone is flogging a yoghurt or a dioxin detector then the same accusation of partiality applies.
Elinda - My fuel on the fire was 3 years of IVF. Pure oestradiol rubbed into my body twice a day. It would have been odd if I hadn’t got BC quite frankly.
[Edited by BCC]
Msmolly - I hope you saw my response to the links you posted. It got slotted in before some later postings.
Responses from post away back – I’ve been at work all day.
Lemongrove,
I love food too much and I won’t be depriving myself of nutrients or resorting to the option of chips and beans. Finty has explained why many Chinese cancers are diseases of poverty.
I am not surprised at the content of the link dismissing the PCRM as from a distance it looked like what appears on this and the diet thread whenever the meaty milky western diet is maligned or Jane Plant is mentioned!
I took part in a study run from Cambridge in the late 90’s and I think it was the EPIC study. We had to fill in a diet questionnaire for about a fortnight. I was really uncomfortable with it because it was geared towards standard bought foods and I have always made most things from scratch and none of my answers fitted and I got fed up filling in ‘other’ and trying to remember ingredients. I also found it difficult even to remember what I’d eaten for lunch when filling it in the same evening. So I’m a wee bit sceptical about the accuracy of any diet information gleaned.
Elinda,
Thanks for the tamoxifen/ vascular link. I figured that the risk would go down once I stopped tamoxifen but nice to see that confirmed. The episode – just a half blackout of vision in one eye for five minutes caused by a blocked artery behind the eye was scary (next stop brain) and I thought my retina was detaching, but on the good side I got heart related tests I’d never have had otherwise and came away with actual goals such as a target BMI, and target cholesterol levels!
After your nasty experience of HRT have you ever found the cause of your headaches ? Mine were all caffeine / theobromine related - when I cut out tea and coffee including decaffeinated versions and cocoa / chocolate they disappeared. I am now keeping them at bay by using the equivalent of one teabag of green or white tea or mixed leaves resteeped to last all day! Adding a piece or two of dark chocolate or one decaffeinated coffee tends to bring on a hazy head and pending headache so I only do that at weekends.
MsMolly
That course run by Campbell is part of Cornell Universities e-learning, and can be taken as a credit for various continuing education courses. I noticed a course on bird biology another on Good Agricultural Practices. The e-learning stuff looked pretty much as you’d expect from a University.