over diagnosis and breast screening

80% of breast cancers are invasive ductal cancers… this means that this 80% of affected women had DCIS prior to the cancer becoming invasive becoming invasive.

i am pro breast screening as i work in that field so some people may say im biased but having gone through the journey with many patients, friends and family but very few have said they wish they had never been screened or had never found out they had cancer or DCIS.

there is a discussion about whether tubular cancers should be treated too as they tend to be slow growing, low grade and rarely lead to mets… but it can happen.

breast cancer in the breast isnt life threatening its once it moves out of the breast that it becomes more serious and if we can prevent it from getting out of the breast then i think that is a definite benefit.

Lxx

i was picked up from a mammagram with dcis -had no symptoms-had wle and 15 sessions of radiotherapy-if the surgeon had said “shall we just leave it and see how you go on ?” -i’d have said "no chance " - thank-you for my treatment-just been discharged from the oncologist d feel i’ve been given a second chance x

I know that if it was high risk only for screening, I would not have been seen and that fills me with dread, I wouldn’t have be on anyone’s radar list.
What happens to the other women/men in the future who stay undiagnosed?
Reassessment of breast screening? Wow there are implications, as ethlydsyl states we are given a second chance and everyone has that right. Technology tells us so.
Does this all mean that say if you are 58 years on diagnosis, you have no screening etc, and you have a slow growing tumour, it takes 10 years to grow to a point where you can feel it, now you are 68, you are referred, your treatment now has to be radical, how does that benefit you? or you may have a heart attack and wouldn’t need any bc treatment??? Sorry cynical or what? xx

Thanks for your comments Czechmate- I realized that I might be in the minority with my views!

Maybe I play devil’s advocate to some extent because I think it is really important that we try to see the bigger picture where heath screening and health spending are concerned. In these debates it is inevitable that we all quote from our own experiences and those of people we know.
My own closest friend died at 51 from BC 12 months after a clear mammogram whilst routine screening detected MY BC when I had no other symptoms …so screening failed her but saved my life? Maybe.
I,too had no family history , no palpable mass and would have been considered low risk; I quizzed my onc about my ‘early’ detection and he said my grade 3 would have shown itself very soon without the mammo. Perhaps screening did save MY life- but advances in treatment are not based on anectodal experiences.

When breast screening was established in the late 1980s the evidence seemed clear - by routinely screening women, cancers detected could be treated earlier and thus more effectively. But several recent studies have shown that fewer lives have been saved than was predicted - and conversely many women have had to face treatment that might never have been necessary.Thus emerging research may well discount previous ‘advances’

No-one has so far mentioned the psychological effects of screening; the false positives and false negatives and the women who are left with serious long-term anxiety about their health . Having worked in mental health I know that this aspect should not be underestimated.

We all cope with what life throws at us differently- and if some of us are prepared to suffer BC treatment which may not have been necessary, so be it - so long as we are given the full picture of the implications BEFORE we attend for screening – which currently is not the case.

The info on the BC screening leaflet reads differently from that which men receive about prostate screening; theirs actually states 'slow-growing cancers are common and may not cause any symptoms or shorten life".
Hopefully the rising level of controversy over breast screening will lead to a more open debate and to more information - which is in all of our interests.
I really do not believe this debate is about cost -cutting. It is bigger than that.

Breast Cancer Screening is very expensive. That is why this debate has been going on from it’s conception. It is doubtful if it could be stopped because Breast Cancer is an emotive subject for ladies. No political party would dare try. I for one was not aware of my disease and I was a screening find. Yes there is an emotional trauma for many on recall that were ‘over treated’. However what would they think if their cancer had been missed because further tests were not carried out. A lot of research on the emotional cost of screening on benign disease is retrospective. These ladies do go as volunteers to be screened. Screening is there to find problems if there are any. That is the nature of the beast. Just because you are being screened doesn’t mean you won’t have the disease all the money is being spent on finding.
Yes there might be more effective ways to spend the cash, but it will not be possible to go stop the NHSBSP without great public outcry.
Such is the nature of things. In my experience it is a feather in the NHS’s cap. Long may it continue.
Cackles
P.S. It is strange that this subject always raises its head at Breast Cancer Awareness Month . Can it be a good vehicle for those that want to get their views, research, work and names in the press.
What a cynic I am.

Sudden probably daft thought. This posting has provided many salient facts clearly and very well from people who are aware of the advantages of screening but not blind to the disadvantages. Maybe some of them should be sent to the TV and press. We too could bring Breat Awareness month to the publics notice. Hopefully with well thought out answers to the over treating brigade. What do others think, and any ideas on the subject?
Cackles

“but advances in treatment are not based on anecdotal experiences”

Advances can only be made with the participation of the patients, anecdotal we may be but this is our experience and our stories are pertinent to the reassessment debate and on this forum. xx

Hi everyone- it was my comment that “advances in treatment are not based on anecdotal experiences”- and I stick by it!
Our comments as patients ARE also of significance and taking part in studies and responding to questionaires etc all help in research- but it is also easy for us to quote from our own experiences and to think that this alters the arguement (eg I would think there are still people alive who have smoked 50 Woodbines a day for 70 years - but I don’t think there are many of us who would now disagree that smoking is bad for your health.)
Most of us started to contribute to these forums because it was supportive for us and ‘a very present help’ at a time when we are at our lowest ebb; we learn from other people’s experiences especially those whose symptoms,grades, ages, treatment etc seems similar to our own and hopefully we can sometimes be a help and support to others. ( I am sill waiting to find people whose hair has only partly regrown after chemotherapy but apart from Horace I think I’m the only one who has experienced this - on the forums. However - I contributed to the BCC’s most recent advice leaflet on chemotherapy and they kindly modified the wording slighty because of my comments- how’s that for democracy?)

I still think the Screening debate is not JUST about money! Screening is very expensive but in the bigger picture not horrendously so: I do think that the money spent on it might be used to better effect -in BC research on genetic targeting etc but it is the question of all this over-treatment that concerns me and the fact that women are not given all the facts before they go for screening. One day people will soon look back on MASS BC screening and be as horrified by all the subsequent over=treatment as I am when I recall the radical,mutilating (and possibly life-saving??) surgery of the 1950s and 60s.

I think this debate,like many on the forums is stimulating and healthy. Because BC is so high profile and unfortunately so common, an issue such as screening is very emotive and it will require very brave medical and political voices to push for it to be reviewed .

Arguements/debates can be altered topsymo, it’s called people power! xx

I wish we could all be screened!.. I had to find my own BC 14 years b4 I would have been called for a routine mammo! BUT of course it is down to money and TIME!.
I would hope that those who do get a mis diagnosis would have the grace to realise that they have been lucky!

Anyone who wishes to be tested for BC should be allowed if thats what they want. Women are getting younger and younger suffering with this dreadful disease, I was 43 on dx and only found it by chance I had an itch on my right breast and it was persistant itch thats what alerted me to my 6cm lump that was obscured by a cyst over the top, hence why they thought it was just a cyst. It should have nothing to do with cost but obviously it does, you could look at it like this the cost of the treatments like herceptin are equally if not more so expensive either way its a no win situation it cost money to screen women and it cost money to treat us, so really money should not be an issue cause its always gonna cost.

If I’d of waited until I was over 50 to be screened for bc I would most certainly be dead, thank heavens for the itch that brought it to my attention. Ironically I had seen a mobile breast screening unit in the town and dropped in cause I did’nt realise you had to have an appt. pre arranged, I was sent away without screening yet something made me go into that mobile unit and if they had of screened me then it may have been just in time before it spread, unfortunately they would not screen me on that day and I wonder how different things could of been. Screen everyone no matter what the age it should be your choice.

Love and light
sarahlousie xxxx

I really thought that everyone accepted that giving mammograms routinely to young women was pointless because their breast tissue in more dense and so the results are really inaccurate.

Do people really think that we can be ‘screened’ to pre-empt every disease and condition that may effect us- what about the hundreds other life threatening conditions that people have to face every day…and to say that ‘money should not be an issue’ -----where is the money to come from to create this perfect disease-free world?t

I give up

if screening was given to those with a high risk then i would still have missed out!.. Diagnosis of grade3 stage2 at the age of 36, NO family history at all… The fact is that BC is a very different disease to each of us, and as i said above I guess that there isnt the time to screen everyone (males too), let alone the money, but I know that I would rather have a false alarm, than no alarm!!!..Perhaps there is a better way to do it…

Not really liking the tone on this thread since I posted, I was giving my opinion not telling everyone they have to think the way I do, I accept everyones different and this disease treats everyone in a different way. Again I am now on herceptin for the rest of my life according to the nurses at the hospital it costs 800 per infusion thats every 3 weeks, money should not be an issue with screening cause it will cost them just as much if they dont screen and more women are dx with this dreadful disease.

Charlotte e - I did read something about using a new screening technique some sort of thermal imaging, something they could use on young women as it gets around the dense tissue younger women syndrome.

Wont be posting on this thread again as feel put upon just for speaking my mind.

sarahlousie, so sorry you feel this way, I started this thread because I was horrified at the thought of the powers that be stopping screening, in my opinion it is extremely frightening and deserves our thoughts and comments.
You are allowed to have your own opinion, that’s democracy!!
You are telling your story and that is vital to this forum, so do not let anyone put you off ever, you do not have to justify your comments to anyone.
Hope you read this, take care and best wishes xx

Whilst appreciating that many episodes of breast cancer are picked up by screening I would like to say that having had a negative screening you cannot relax for three years. I found lump one year after screening that was then found to be two connected lumps with lymph node involvement and DCIS in the other breast. The care since has been brilliant. Just really to say self examine as well

my BC was not picked up by screening, mine was found in between screenings. As prev posters says it is not a given than if you are clear now you will be clear for the next 3 yrs. I have no cancer in my family so very much a low risk.

I am in my fifties, I found a lump about 25 yrs ago, biopsies etc were not as good then. I had to have an operation to remove the lump & then test it and it was about 10 days wait. It turned out to be benign. You could say that having the lump out was “over treatment”. The worse bit I heard on this subject was the 200 or so women that were “psychologically impared or traumatised” by being investigated for cancer and then turned out to be cancer free. How can you be traumatised for long when you told you do NOT have cancer. It is the rest of us who are told we have cancer that have the right to be traumatised. Mammograms have to stay.

Marion101, really good point, I for one would have been jumping for joy at being told that I did not have cancer!! xx

This is only about screening the asymptomatic in the screening programme. Not about people in other age groups requesting screens, or diagnosing symptoms people find themselves, or those at high risk. Only the screening programme.

Anecdotes don’t make science. Overdiagnosis is found through statistics - comparing screened with unscreened populations and finding cancer incidence higher in screened populations, without corresponding decrease in advanced cancer incidence years after screening is introduced, less than hoped for reduction in deaths from breast cancer (if any) and in deaths from all causes in the two groups.

Interpretation: screening detects cancers (noninvasive and invasive) which would never progress; not all cancers kill. Combined with what is known from cervical, prostate, lung cancer (they did try screening the at-risk from lung cancer and abandoned it due to overtreatment; same for babies with neuroblastoma in Japan), other cancers and autopsy studies, it is known many people have cancerous changes in their bodies which never progress to cause harm. Cancer isn’t as simple as you think. It can grow slowly (very), clear itself, stay as it is or take off like a rocket. They don’t know enough in many cases to know “what would have happened if…”

If you are screened you risk finding these. If it was rare you might think it worth the risk. If more common you might pause. People react differently and they have a right to make up their own minds. Partly it depends on the treatment: if the treatment was a pill we’d all go for it. The Nordic Cochrane Centre, which exists for the purpose of examining all available evidence about interventions to get the best overview of effectiveness, estimates that about 50% screen-detected cancers would not have progressed. The NHS figure is 5-10%, but not in the leaflets, not in that form on their website. I’m sorry to say they don’t want women to know because they fear it would deter them from attending. It is wrong to keep back facts to get the punters in, however benign they may think their motives. Is that controversial?

It happens to be a sad and almost impossible to believe fact that the NHS is doing this. In 1997 Professor Baum resigned from the Screening Committee on the issue of telling the truth: he set up screening in 1989 and soon found unexpectedly high rates of DCIS which they didn’t know what to do with (and they are still wondering) - he wanted women told, which was only decent. Many would probably still have gone for screening, as the opinion on this thread indicates. However the Committee refused to tell women and gave this reason: if they told women about it they wouldn’t attend. They have gone on doing that ever since, although evidence that screening is not preventing deaths has mounted, and the latest leaflets, revised after pressure, are still squirmy on overdiagnosis - they neither name nor explain it and embed it in reassuring pink flowers well after the big (contested) claims that screening reduces the chance of death from bc.

Overtreatment is of the essence of screening, and should have been explained from the start: a screening test will always miss some, and catch some it shouldn’t have; the leaflet implies that these will be sorted out on recall by “further tests” - but it isn’t true, because they don’t know enough to know which are genuine cancers and which not, and if I had known that at least 850 women that year (that’s the most favourable estimate, that the NHS admits to - but not in the leaflets) would have had treatment they did not need I would not have gone. The NC estimate is 7000. Clearly a lot of women would still have gone - all I want is for women to be told so that people like me have our rights respected, you can have yours. And, surely, even if you decide it is still worth it, it should be your decision on fair evidence, and not manipulated by selective information? It is for the experts to judge whether as a programme it is cost effective.

I personally don’t have confidence in the independence of the review. It is such a political hot potato I can’t see them scrapping it. They certainly won’t throw away all those mammogram machines, and it would be hard to refuse mammograms to women asking for them after 20 years of near insistence that they have them. Just for good measure: Gordon Brown announced the age extension in 2007, but it does not appear to be evidence-based, there is good evidence that more screened women under 50 die of breast cancer than unscreened women, and it is suggested that is because intervention causes otherwise dormant cancers to spread. But it’s a votecatcher.

I’m really sorry to have gone on, but it’s not easy to get your head round but it is very serious.

s

Thanks snowwhite; it needed saying and you have said it very well.- better than I did anyway!