The dairy debate
The dairy debate Hi, I haven’t seen anyone posting on this for a while & am still in 2 minds over it myself. I haven’t read the Jane Plant book (flicked through it not long after being diagnosed & felt even more depressed!). Have read about research on the Nurses study in the US which showed a lowered risk of getting bc for those taking the highest intake of low fat dairy products, but this may be because it’s supplemented by Vitamin D. Subsequently read something that stated the growth factors in milk don’t increase tumour initiation but if cancer cells are there they will ‘feed’ them . I find it very confusing, I suppose on the whole I’m not convinced, but have given up milk on my cereal & don’t eat much other dairy - just in case! What does everyone else think?
Sandra
Hi Sandra Like you I felt I ought to abandon dairy products and so after diagnosis last April I shunned milk, butter, cheeses and yoghurt and switched to soya this and that. Went on to brown rice every day which is supposed to clear out the system, stuck to chicken and fish and lots of veg and fruit.
Managed this for some while until I read that soya was suspect as it imitated dairy and coated the cells, thus preventing anitbodies getting to them to do their work. It’s all totally confusing so I guess the maxim “just a little of what you fancy” applies. I certainly wouldn’t go down the Jane Plant route. Isn’t she the coffee enema lady? Does the bowel prefer caffeinated or decaffeinated, and how many sugars?!! At the moment I’m off cheese and drinking rice milk on cereal (vanilla flavour), a scrape of Flora Light on rice cakes or oatmeal biscuits and Yeo organic live natural yoghurt.
Judy xxx
Another thread Hi Sandra
A thread in the complementary therapies forum called Taking Supplements turned into a Jane Plant discussion. I’m am very sceptical and critical of Jane Plant, but blondie has made a post on that thread which is one of the most interesting and persuasive anti dairy arguments I have read.
My own view still is that there is no firm evidence that dairy is implicated in causing breast cancer or that avoiding dairy will prevent recurrence. I understand the arguments about wanting to feel in control but I don’t essentially believe that anything I do can stop my cancer returning…for me believing this is in itself my own kind of control.
There is some evidence that a low fat diet can slightly lessen the likelihood of recurrence in er- and pr- tumours (reserach done on people with no node involvement) and a high dairy diet can be high fat.
I go along with the stuff about general healthy eating…5 fruit and veg stuff, and only eat organic meat (but I can afford it…not everyone can). I reckon a healthy diet and trying to keep fit (I just do fast walking each day…nothing too major) makes me feel better than eating junk. I kind of hedge my bets too, and as I went off tea and coffee during chemo mainly drink herbal teas (love lemon and ginger though nothing to do wth cancer!) I also have soya mike on cereal cause it tastes all right, have tried to cut down on cheese (love it and used to eat loads), but otherwise eat dairy in moderation. A little of what you fancy etc…
I think any prescriptive diets are punitive, and some of the advocates of dairy free this and that are highly provocative…and without any evidence. As I said in an earlier post my views are coloured by very sad memories of someone who died of breast cancer and had become obsessive about following dairy free.
Eating is for me one of life’s pleasures and I enjoy lots of different kinds of good food including vegan food…but chocolate, ice cream, rich cream sauces, a runny camambert, parmesan on pasta…all these are are foods I enjoy and I’d need some really solid evidence to give them up.
Jane
Vegan Diet Hi Sandra,
I’m not sure about cutting down on dairy to lessen the cancer risk as I’ve been vegan for 12 years and it didn’t seem to help - I was diagnosed with bc aged 36. But then again, I have since found out I have the BRCA1 gene so it was probably beyond the control of diet.
When I was diagnosed I asked my doctor if my vegan diet would be a problem and he said he couldn’t see why - so I’ve stuck with it. Not that I’m at all a health freak - I drink far too much wine for that!!
Cheers
Sue
— I have struggled with this one a bit myself after an appointment at The Haven where the nutritionist there told me off for eating cheese on toast once a week!
I spoke to Cancer Bacup and my own Oncologist (who actually treated Jane Plant) about her advice and was quite clearly told that there is no scientific evidence to back up the theory of dairy products stimulating / causing breast cancer. Infact in her book Jane Plant herself actually says that 15% of your diet can be dairy without it causing harm. So does she believe it’s bad for us or not???
Cancer Bacup also told me that many women substitute dairy for calcium supplements, but the problem with that is that you don’t get magnesium which occurs naturally in dairy products.
So I have carried on eating cheese a couple of times a week, still have milk in my tea and occasionally eat yoghurt.
Sorry I don’t really have any answers and so decided to just take the advice of the experts I’m in contact with.
Thanks Thanks for your replies, have just been onto the ‘Complementary Therapy’ forum & checked out the thread there - very interesting. I do find it frustrating that there is so little good research published on lifestyle changes that could make a difference to survival. I am eating loads of fruit & veg, wholegrain cereals, bought a juicer, drink green tea - Gillian McKeith would be proud of me at least- though I’m not sure what she would make of my chocolate intake! I find following such a healthy diet hard work (since I also have 2 small children to cook for who aren’t overly impressed, though at least my son now likes broccoli since he sees mum eat so much) but it does give me a small sense of control, doing something that may increase my chances of seeing the children grow up.
As I said, I have cut back on diary but I feel it would be too restrictive to cut it out completely - when I eat at friends houses or go out for a pizza with the children I don’t want to fuss over what I can & can’t eat. Its interesting that Jane Plant says you can eat small amounts of dairy - I thought the whole point was you had to cut it out completely.
Anyway, off for a cup of green tea & to watch some TV…
Sandra
Magnesium Apple, I’m interested that Cancer Bacup omitted to mention that magnesium is found in loads of other foods apart from dairy.
Whether or not people eat dairy is up to them. I don’t, but keep an open mind about it, but it does annoy me when experts imply that you are depriving yourself of essential nutrients by giving up dairy.
A quick search on the internet shows magnesium is found in the following - source - University of Maryland Medical Center - er, no mention of dairy at all…
“Rich sources of magnesium include tofu, legumes, whole grains, green leafy vegetables, wheat bran, Brazil nuts, soybean flour, almonds, cashews, blackstrap molasses, pumpkin and squash seeds, pine nuts, and black walnuts. Other good dietary sources of this mineral include peanuts, whole wheat flour, oat flour, beet greens, spinach, pistachio nuts, shredded wheat, bran cereals, oatmeal, bananas, and baked potatoes (with skin), chocolate, and cocoa powder. Many herbs, spices, and seaweeds supply magnesium, such as agar seaweed, coriander, dill weed, celery seed, sage, dried mustard, basil, cocoa powder, fennel seed, savory, cumin seed, tarragon, marjoram, poppy seed.”
— —70% cocoa dark chocolate has magnesium in - yum! And the one’s I’ve seen also have no dairy - result, eh?
I’m in the process of giving up dairy, the number of things I’ve read and I’m also seeing a nutritionist at the Haven have convinced me that there’s at least a doubt in the wisdom of eating too much dairy. I use almond milk in my tea and on cereal, and though a bit expensive it’s the nicest tasting alternative I’ve found. Soya tastes ok, but I’ve been advised not to eat too much soya either also soya can be a bit hard to digest causing bloating, I find that’s the case anyway.
I love cheese so I can’t see myself going completely dairy-free but I’ve decided to try and keep dairy-free on a day to day basis at home and work, but as someone else said (sorry, don’t remember who - isn’t it a pain not being able to see the posts) if I go out to eat or eat at a friends I’m not going to stress about it. Once in a while is not going to be too harmful, I’m sure. Just so long as I’m not drinking loads of milk, eating cheese, yoghurt or butter everyday.
Btw, I read that someone is using Flora as a butter substitute, not sure if they were going dairy-free or not - but flora has buttermilk in it, so do most margarines and spreads. I’ve found an organic sunflower spread by Pure which is dairy and soya free and also no hydrogenated fats if that’s any help to anyone.
Cheese on Toast. Hi Apple, I can’t believe you were told off for eating cheese on toast once a week!!
I had a very healthy diet before I was diagnosed with cancer (and mets) and I still have a very healthy diet. I eat as much organic as possible, love cheese on toast and a glass of wine or two.
I’m currently in remission and feel very well.
Belinda…x
healthy diet I was recommended a book called ‘The breast cancer prevention and recovery diet’ by Suzannah Olivier.
She talks about preferred sources of dairy, (yogurt and cottage cheese), but not cutting out dairy. She does promote soya and organic foods.
She also has a section on anti breast cancer ‘superfoods’ most of which I’ve always eaten anyway.
The only thing I’ve changed is to buy as much organic as possible.
As for accasional cheese on toast…for goodness sake, a little of what you fancy does you good!
Zeb
xx
Processed Foods If you look at the ingredients of processed foods it’s difficult to find any that don’t have some dairy produce in them (whey, milk powder) so the only way to completely avoid dairy is to not eat processed foods and/or check labels carefully before buying.
Which brings me to my theory that people may well unwittingly consume more dairy than they did 20 years ago because it is hidden in so many foods.
I’m not saying that is a factor in the increase in breast cancer, but it does cross my mind. As does the question of whether the reduction in mineral levels in non organic fruit and vegetables has had some effect on increased cancer rates. According to the Soil Association, mineral levels in UK fruits and vegetables fell by up to 76% between 1940 and 1991. The Government and Cancer Charities say nothing about that (not even to confirm or refute it) when they tell us to “eat 5 a day”. What minumim levels of Vitamins & minerals are they assuming 5 a day provides? Obviously it’s going to vary depending on the quality of the fruit and veg and whether or not it’s organic.
Why do I get the feeling that nobody in the world of cancer research is taking these sorts of questions seriously? They seem simple questions to ask. Is it that the funding, excitement and kudos is much greater for research into genes, female hormones, microbiology and drugs in relation to breast cancer?
The EPIC study (The European Prospective Investigation of Cancer ) is a study looking at the connection between diet and cancer, but whether they are looking at the quality of food and the proportion of processed food or just types of food consumed, I don’t know.
Which looks better on a scientist’s CV - carrying out research into breast cancer by investigation into mineral levels in food or experimenting with genes and breast cancer cell development? Maybe I’m being unfair, but I do wonder.
And then I think I’m not being unfair because the fact that these obvious questions are not obviously being investigated insults my intelligence and some of you may feel that it insults your intelligence as well.
Need to start early (long) At the time of my first cancer in late 1998 I bought a then newly-published book called “Food for Life - preventing cancer through healthy diet”. This was based on the findings of an international panel, brought together by the World Cancer Research Fund and the American Institute for Cancer Research. The panel reviewed the many research reports which had come out in the 1980s and 1990s linking diet and cancer, and in late 1997 brought out a report called "Food, nutrition and the prevention of cancer: a global perspective. The book based on this report makes interesting reading.
I must confess that having been told last time to “go away and get on with my life”, I read it and then forgot about it. But having read this thread with interest I got it out again last night and reread the section on different cancers and also that on dairy and other main food groups. The recommendation was that dairy products should be eaten only in limited quantities and low or no-fat products preferred. Meat too should be eaten in much smaller amounts than is common in Britain (no more than 3 ounces a day of cooked meat) and poultry and fish preferred to red meat.
The bulk of our diet should consist of fruit, vegetables, pulses and wholegrain cereals, which help to protect against other cancers and not just breast cancer. I think we sometimes forget that having breast cancer doesn’t mean we are somehow exempt from developing another kind of cancer, many of which have worse prognoses than a lot of breast cancers.
The book predates Jane Plant’s “Your Life In Your Hands, but makes several points which are interesting in the light of Jane’s belief that Chinese women get very little breast cancer just because they don’t eat dairy products.
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The risk of breast cancer is higher among women whose first period is early and whose growth as girls was relatively rapid and who are taller as adults. The average age of first period in Britain and the USA is now about 12 or 13. In rural China it is 15 to 18 or even later. Most Chinese women are tiny and thin when compared to the average western woman. A key factor in determining age of first period and rapid childhood growth is a diet in early childhood which is high in fat, sugar and protein.
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The typical high fat, low fibre Western diet promotes overweight and obesity, a known risk factor for breast cancer after the menopause. The average Chinese diet is high in fibre, cereals and vegetables and low in meat, and overweight is much less common.
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Western consumption of alcohol, particularly among women, has rocketed in the last 30 years. One of the strongest correlations between diet and an increased risk of breast cancer is that of regular consumption of alcohol (even as little as one drink a day) because alcohol increases the level of oestrogen in the blood. Interestingly the book suggests that this effect can possibly be mitigated by drinking only with a meal, when the alcohol is absorbed much more slowly and doesn’t produce the same high peak of alcohol in the blood.
I’m going to finish by quoting the final paragraph in the breast cancer section in full, as it seems to me to have implications for all of us with young children and grandchildren.
“The best present estimate is that plant-based diets and avoiding alcohol, together with maintaining the right body weight and taking regular physical exercise could prevent 33-50 per cent of cases of breast cancer. These diets and related lifestyle factors should be established before puberty and maintained throughout life. The potential for prevention starting in adult life may be only 10-20 per cent.
Kathy
PS Forgot to mention that the book acknowledges that modest consumption of alcohol is known to have beneficial results in reducing the rsik of heart disease and therefore says that we have to weigh up the risks for ourselves. However it strongly recommends that if we do drink regularly because of the sake of our hearts we should limit consumption to no more than one drink a day for women and two a day for men.
Speaking personally I do shudder at the potential implications for long-term damage to health of today’s culture of binge-drinking among many young people.
Kathy
(Suddenly feeling very old and grannyish as she wrote that!)
Alcohol I think more recent research suggests that the benefits to the heart of sensible alcohol consumption are less than originally thought (sorry everyone who likes a regular glass - just telling you what I’ve read).
If there is such strong evidence that diet can reduce cancer incidence quite dramatically - and there seems to be sufficient evidence for the Government and Cancer charities to make mention of it. Why do they just witter on about “5 a day” and not take some really tough action to improve the population’s diet right from birth?
Presumably they don’t want to upset the food industry, supermarkets and the alcohol industry who make so much money purveying nutritional crap.
Meanwhile, the cancer rollercoaster goes on - 41,000 women a year getting breast cancer, 12,000 a year dying of it, loads of money spent on research into genes, drugs, hormones. Ok this money still needs to be spent to help effectively treat people who’ve already got it but if it’s true that up to 50% of cancers can be prevented by diet and lifestyle, it’s appalling that so little prevention action is being taken. If much of it could be diet related, it’s a relatively cheap prevention strategy as well.
Just a quickie Chinese people get much higher levels of stomach (or is it colon?) cancer than people in the west…and as for the levels of industrial pollution in parts of China…
Jane
Stomach cancer Jane, I’ve just checked the book I quoted and it says that the highest rates are found in Japan, Central and S. America and eastern Asia. Lowest rates are in Australia, Canada and the US. Stomach cancer is declining in nearly all countries with the spread of refrigeration and the move away from eating so much salted and cured meat, but it’s still the second most common cancer worldwide (10% of cases) and the sixth most common in Britain.
As for the indutrial pollution you mention - that’s a time-bomb waiting to go off.
Kathy
—hormones in dairy — I had understood that the primary reason to avoid dairy was because of the hormone addative issue. So the advice is only organic dairy, and watch the fat intake. I recommend a book (possibly where I first read about the hormone issue): “How to Prevent and Treat Cancer with Natural Medicine” by Drs Murray, Birdsall, Pizzorno and Reilly. It even has a letter in the back to take to your oncologist and encourage him/her to read the book and its many lifestyle/diet recommentations.
In the google search that brought me to this discussion, I also found this about dairy hormones. Don’t know if the source is a reliable or not (kitchendoctor.com)?
CHICAGO, June 21[no year given] /PRNewswire/ – The following was released today by Samuel S. Epstein, M.D., Professor Environmental Medicine, University of Illinois School of Public Health and Chairman of Cancer Prevention Coalition:
"As reported in a May 9 article in The Lancet, women with a relatively small increase in blood levels of the naturally occurring growth hormone Insulin-like Growth Factor I (IGF-1) are up to seven times more likely to develop premenopausal breast cancer than women with lower levels. Based on those results, the report concluded that the risks of elevated IGF-1 blood levels are among the leading known risk factors for breast cancer, and are exceeded only by a strong family history or unusual mammographic abnormalities. Apart from breast cancer, an accompanying editorial warned that elevated IGF-1 levels are also associated with greater than any known risk factors for other major cancers, particularly colon and prostate.
This latest evidence is not unexpected. Higher rates of breast, besides colon, cancer have been reported in patients with gigantism (acromegaly) who have high IGF-1 blood levels. Other studies have also shown that administration of IGF-1 to elderly female primates causes marked breast enlargement and proliferation of breast tissue, that IGF-1 is a potent stimulator of human breast cells in tissue culture, that it blocks the programmed self-destruction of breast cancer cells, and enhances their growth and invasiveness.
These various reports, however, appear surprisingly unaware of the fact that the entire U.S. population is now exposed to high levels of IGF-1 in dairy products. In February 1995, the Food and Drug Administration approved the sale of unlabelled milk from cows injected with Monsanto’s genetically engineered bovine growth hormone, rBGH, to increase milk production. As detailed in a January 1996 report in the prestigious International Journal of Health Services, rBGH milk differs from natural milk chemically, nutritionally, pharmacologically and immunologically, besides being contaminated with pus and antibiotics resulting from mastitis induced by the biotech hormone. More critically, rBGH milk is supercharged with high levels of abnormally potent IGF-1, up 10 times the levels in natural milk and over 10 times more potent. IGF-1 resists pasteurization, digestion by stomach enzymes, and is well absorbed across the intestinal wall. . ."
Breakthrough It is so easy to get seduced by individual studies without considering (or even knowing) their methodology or validity or reliability. It is also easy to get seduced by things which sound ‘scientific’ or sound like ‘common sense.’
The evidence on dairy is contested; it is not proven; it is contradictory. I think this summary from Breakthrough breast cancer accurately sums up the current state of research and knowledge:
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Dairy Products
The link between dairy products and breast cancer risk has been investigated in a large number of studies but it is still unclear whether eating dairy products affects a woman’s risk of breast cancer.
Some studies have looked at specific dairy products, such as milk or cheese, whereas others have looked at dairy products in general.
Several large studies have found that eating dairy products did not affect a woman’s risk of developing the disease. Other studies have suggested that dairy products, particularly low fat products, might decrease the risk of breast cancer. And others have suggested that dairy products, in particular high fat products, might increase the risk of the disease.
At the moment there is no good scientific evidence to recommend that women alter their consumption of dairy products in order to reduce their risk of breast cancer.
The decision to include or exclude dairy products in your diet should be based on nutritional requirements and personal choice.
____
Jane
Form your own opinions I agree that the jury’s out on dairy, but the statement like the one from Breakthrough doesn’t convince me to go back to dairy. I think you have to look at the information for and against and make your own decision and I think there’s more than enough to be suspicious about, despite what the charities say. I’m not interested in their rather bland statements, unless they are accompanied by specific references to tell me where to find the research both for and against and then I can find and read the research and make up my own mind. The people that write these statements on behalf of the charities haven’t had breast cancer. I have and bland statements designed not to worry me are, frankly, pretty useless.
Also I think people consume more diary than they used to both consciously and unconsciously (see my earlier post). Supermarkets have rows and rows of dairy products (like all the choice in breakfast cereal, why does anyone need all this stuff?) and I think we have been brainwashed into thinking that you aren’t having a healthy diet unless you eat dairy.
That’s rubbish. Every nutrient that’s in diary can be found in a wide range of other foods. The only exception to this I’ve found is Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA), which some researchers suggest could reduce breast cancer risk (as far as I’m aware, it’s early research on mice). As I understand it, CLA isn’t found widely (or at all) in any foods except milk and it’s only at reasonable levels in the milk of grass fed cows. As well as not eating dairy beause I’m suspicious about it, I don’t eat it because I’m so bloody minded, I want to resist being brainwashed into thinking that I’m missing out on nutrients by not eating it.
As for Monsanto (or Monsatan as some naughty, cynical people call them) , fortunately their “wonderful” drug for increasing cow’s milk production is banned in EU milk production. However, if you buy diary products that aren’t produced in the EU, you could be consuming milk from cows treated with Monsanto’s Posilac Bovine Somatotropin.
Jane, I suspect you are going to tell me that I’m creating the perception that governments, the pharmaceuticals and the food industry are conspiring to feed us cheap food that poses a health risk. Well actually, I think that’s true to a great extent, except that I think it’s just greed to make fat profits rather than a conspiracy. Conspiracies require a bit of intellect.
I have a very different view to you of “common sense” I think it’s a hugely underrated quality, not just in relation to health issues, but in politics and business as well and there isn’t nearly enough of it around. If we asked more common sense questions about breast cancer and pushed governments, charities and researchers for answers, we might get somewhere faster and end some of this uncertainty about controversial issues such as diet and environment.
Read this article about our friends Monsanto and Fox News if you want to find out more about the sort of thing that goes on
prwatch.org/prwissues/1998Q2/foxbgh.html
Oh no, a knock at the door, is it the men from Monsatan come to get me…?