Good advice, thanks Christiane. I have emailed him to ask him his opinion, i have also asked him if we should object to same people being involved in this disciplianry as were at my previous one in August. Will let you know his reply, but i have found the drc helpful though sometimes i think you just want someone to take it all away and deal with it for you. Which i suppose is where you are lucky in having your solicitor. Have you heard anything yet on whats happening next in your fight?
I was sent a questions booklet by the drc, which you apparently put down your issues with your employers then post it to them for them to reply. Has anyone else had one of these and if they have has it helped their situation? Not sure whether to use it, as worried it may lengthen the process i am having to go through. Should i just sit back and wait for it to happen as union rep keeps saying?
Same here. The persons who investigated and held my last disciplinary are going to be holding my next disciplinary, how fair is that. Especially when she is involved in one of the accusations against me. You cannot win, i am not sleeping now so i know its going to get worse before it gets better. Lets just hope they have dug themselves a massive hole because they expected us to throw in the towel and as we have stuck to our guns they have to prove their purpose in putting us through this extra stress. Do you ever wonder if you would have had to go through all this if ou had never been off work fighting bc? I know i do as she has told me several times (though she would never admit it) that mistakes happened which wouldn't have if i had been there.
Catkin19. I have just been through the same. The person that was put forward for me was the one involved in the dispute. I objected and I am waiting to hear who they decide to put up next. Meanwhile, the saga goes on and on and on.................and the solicitor's expenses go up and up and up................!
you have to laugh. as advised by my lawyer i submitted a grievance to the head of HR........reply received saying he has delegated my line manager to investigate it. yes, the same line manager who was overseeing my return to work. given that the grievance is about the manner in which my return to work was managed, how can it be investigated by the person who was responsible for it? (although part of the problem is that our organisation is so chaotic and lines of accountability so unclear that it's pretty well impossible to work out who's responsible for anything.) naturally the conclusion will be that they did everything possible to support me but i was so difficult/unreasonable/incompetent etc etc that my colleagues couldn't work with me so i had to be moved........anyway we'll see what the lawyer thinks of that idea...............
I couldn't agree more Christiane, lets hope someone one day gives them a taste of what they have given us. At least we know they won't have the support of the fantastic people on here to get them through. Thats one thing we are rich in and no one can take away from us. Happy and healthy 2009 to all the great people on this site and lets please all keep in touch so we can get each other through the next stages of this awful battle, which none of us should be going through xxxxxx
Happy New Year to you, Mounties, and those of us on this thread who are recovering from breast cancer and who are and have been on the receiving end of bullies.
Let us hope that we will soon see a positive end to our problems and that the bullies get their just rewards.
I couldn't agree more Catkin that what goes around comes around, lets hope someone bullies the bullies one day and they feel as alone as they make us feel. It hurts when the people who you think you can trust stab you in the back and use the excuse " they made me", how pathetic they are. I hope the new year is a happy one for you and lets just hope and pray we will still be on this site this time next year telling each other it was worth the fight because we won. As we have all said we are not doing it for the money we are doing it to prove we are good honest people who if we can beat cancer, can beat the bullies. Onward and Upwards !!!!!
Happy New Year everyone and all the best for 2009. in the end all that matters is that we are alive. i have nothing but contempt for the "colleagues" who have kicked me when i was down, but illness sure as hell shows people in their true colours and fortunately there are nice kind honest supportive people out there. so ignore all the pathetic inadequate bullies as best you can..................i'm certainly glad i know who my real friends are, even though it was extremely painful to discover that someone i thought was trustworthy is nothing of the kind. what goes around comes around though. so chins up...................
Thank you for telling your tale tricia, you were lucky in having a hr dept to go to, my employer doesn't have that option as its a small charity. I did have a meeting with a committee member, (as its a charity its run by a committee), back in April. This i thought was an ideal opportunity for me and manager to air our differences and i basically said the same as you that i just wanted to be supported at work and not hassled with spot checks constantly and monthly supervisions. We all agreed that we would move on from it and things would get better for everyone. A colleague came with me to support me and tell them the effect all of this was having on the team. A couple of weeks later i was told the first of the 4 allegatios i have had against me in the last 6 months had been lodged by another colleague who is a puppy of the management. So that is where we are now wi th me getting told to attend another disciplinary on 16th of jan where i will be dismissed. I have thought about suggesting mediation via acas, but as thay have wanted rid of me since i whistleblew their errorrs o my return to work i stand no chance of changing their plans. Especially as when a colleague recently tried to stick up for me it ended in another allegation from management. If you have any ideas you think that might help me get back to the job i love, i would welcome any advice. Christina xx
I simply spoke to someone in HR and told the truth about the events as they happened.I was asked if I wanted to pursue a harassment case and I said no.I simply wanted to be able to do my job without constant harrassment and being undermined by a manager who was telling lies to staff and not allowing me to put my case due to"confidentiality issues".My manager was asked to hold a meeting to "clear the air" which consisted of him asking who all wanted to work with me.When a few folk said they couldn't trust me I offered them a transfer application and said I was going nowhere ,so it might be better if they left.It's a very long story,but I stuck to my guns and with the support of a couple of great mates and my hubby I survived to tell the tale.I've met some of these former colleagues over the years and they all agree that they got sucked in to something which they now realise was very unfair on me.The gang mentality really,led by a couple of bullies.They also said they admired my strength of character in not allowing anyone to get away with anything.I know how awful it is going home at night and just wanting to cry,but if you believe in yourself,you can be incredibly strong.I use the horrible experience to prevent this happening to anyone else.I'm always first to jump in if I see potential bullying and refuse to join in nasty malicious gossip. I'll be thinking of you and hope that your union works a damn site harder to protect you.Take care.
How did you weetricia? What did you do to enable you to stay in your job? I have tried so hard to find out what i have or have not done wrong but all i ever get back is drop the appeal, leave or you've changed. How can i work with that?
I have received email this morning telling me that now i am off the sick i am back on suspension, what the hell did i do to deserve all this horrible treatment, is it because of bc and mistakes they made whilst i was off fighting it, as they have said several times mistakes wouldn't have happened if you'd been there
Don't be despondent.Stick up for yourself.I was in a similar position over10yrs ago and beat the bullies.Still working for the same organisation in a better position than before.Take care of number one.Good Luck!
Hy everyone, Hope you have all had a great peaceful christmas. I did not even think about work during christmas and just concentrated on enjoying having my family round me, though it felt lonely having no friends to invite. I have been to Gp this morning and been signed off the sick, which is what union rep advised me to do. Spoke to him on Christmas eve and he told me to stop worrying, wait for disciplinary where he agrees i will be instantly dismissed and then he will get legal advice to go straight to a tribunal. He says due to the constant hassle and bullying i have sufferred i will win my case hands down.Sad part is though i would dearly love to be going back to work today and things just go back to the great relationship i had with managers and colleagues previous to bc.Instead i am feeling really stressed at the thought that when i email them the news of being signed of the sick they will tell me to work in the office, which means i will have daily contact with residents and colleagues but not be allowed to speak to them. How can i make them tell me why they have treated me so badly? or do i get that answer when it goes to a tribunal? Still unsure about starting grievance against them as if they are going to sack me is there any point?
I would like to also say Thank you very very much to all the fantastic friends who have helped me so much on this site. I would never have got so far with this awful fight without you all. I hope you all have a Happy and healthy Christmas and New year, look forward to catching up with you all in the new year. Love Christina xxxx
Mounties and Catkin - Nothing more to report except that my saga goes on and it is hotting up.....It is making me a nervous wreck. But I am writing to wish you a Happy Christmas and as you say, Mounties, a PEACEFUL New Year - and a satisfactory end to the sagas that we three have.
I am hoping to try and forget the problem for a couple of days over Christmas because there is nothing more I can do now over the Christmas period. I know I will not be able to forget it. It has dominated my life for over a year now.
I would like to thank all of you who have contributed to this thread as it has helped me a lot, and I know it must have helped Mounties, to have your support - just to know that you are listening and offering advice where you can. I wish you all a Happy Christmas, and thanks.
I'm following this thread and can't believe that things go from bad to worse for all of you. I do hope things work out and although I don't say a lot, I doo feel for you.
Have a good Christmas
A colleague has popped round this morning to bring me a xmas card which was lovely but husband had a real rant at her about my other colleagues that have been to see me then next thing i know they have made statements against me. One colleague has even apprently been to see the managers to tell them how ridiculous she believes the allegations against me are and now she is included in the allegations as they know i have talked to her. What the hell do you do to stop you going crazy, live like a nun!!!. I am hoping union is going to rg me today and tell me what he is going to do to help me, that is if he is not on holiday again. Sorry i am getting cynical. Thank you Christiane, you are a true friend when it feels like everyone else is scoring points in stabbing me in the back. I hope you have a very happy and peaceful Christmas and New year, Love Christina xxx
Thank you, Mounties. We are both going through a similar situation, but yours is worse as it is your livelihood.
I have been accused of more or less the same as you ie talking to people outside the 'clique'. It is alright for them to talk outside the 'clique' but not for me to do the same. My solicitor said it has been quite alright for me to talk to others as I have been seeking advice and in any case it was after the original issue. I think they are all clutching at straws. They are trying at any length to accuse us of something. Bullying tactics!!
Thank you so very much Christiane, it is so wonderful knowing that someone i have never met can give me so much support. One of the allegations against me is that i am guilty of having inappropriate conversations with colleagues and residents, which means that the one colleague i thought i could trust and who kept telling me i could trust him completely has obviously blabbed, which hurts one hell of a lot.
Mounties - How sad this is.
Be forceful with your union rep. Don't let him fob you off.
You may be able to get one appointment free with a solicitor if the union cannot give you one or recommend one.
Maybe a solicitor will be able to make contact in some way with the residents to get their views, even if only verbally, to support you. Maybe as your representative he will be allowed to talk to them. Not sure though. Just thinking aloud.
Another thought - you are off work sick. You are currently having doctors' notes. You are still sick - if not pysically, you are sick emotionally - with anxiety and stress and not in a position to go to work. Make sure you keep the doctor on your side and up to date with things and keep sending the sick notes in.
As I see it, but I am not sure, I would have thought that you cannot have a disciplinary whilst you are off sick. Keep 'sick' for as long as you can to give you and your union rep and/or solicitor time to fully prepare a case for you.
We ARE your friends. We KNOW what you are going through.
Do u know for all the saddest of reasons you two really do feel like good friends to me and help me so much to know i am not experiencing this awful bullying alone. I have been told i will probably be dismissed when i attend this next disciplinary if i am found guilty, which obviously means i will be sacked. Even a colleague who has stayed in touch whilst i have been at home has reported me for talking to him!!! Like you Catkin, i had also started a course prior to bc and had hoped that once i retruned to work i would be able to complete it and celebrate it as part of my recovery from cancer. I even accompanied a colleague who was doing the sourse with me to Luton to take the exams last year as she had used my illness as an excuse for her not being able to complete the course either. Thats so laughable. I have emailed union rep to tell him he really has to get his bum into gear and help me fight this, i know i will be dismissed, they refuse to talk to the residents so i have no evidence to help me win but i am going to ring a solicitor tomorrow in the hope they can help me in some way whatever it costs. Even if i can just clear my name
I am so sorry, catkin19. What is it with these people?
What a waste of all our expertise - and time - when we should be using it more positively.
Hello girls. my situation has also got worse in that i now have another "complaint" against me, but the good thing about that is that the lawyers now definitely have to take over as it's really beyond the point where i can deal with it myself any more. and it's also made it clear that my time with this employer is over...........i just want them to get me out in one piece.
.......i found some course work i'd been doing last year when i first went back, and i feel really sad when i think about how hopeful i felt then. i'd got through all that bloody awful treatment and fear and pain and made it to the point where i felt ready to go back to work..........feeling really thrilled to have the worst behind me, as i thought. i was even allowed to rejoin the course that i'd had to drop out of because of having been ill, and scored really good marks. i would just never have dreamed how nasty my colleagues would be.............i know it's a human tendency to turn on the weak, but these are health professionals!!..........i'm now such a basket case that i could probably apply for ill-health retirement.......i wouldn't have got it before because my prognosis was too good, but now that my self-worth has been destroyed and my mood is at rock bottom i might qualify.........what a waste of all my skill and experience........
Mounties - I am sorry I have not been able to reply to your desperate plea sooner. I have been out for the day - but the dreadful situation that you and I are in is always on my mind. I don't know what to say to help you as I am in the same position at the moment. I have just heard the lies that are they are saying about me too - and they so-say have a witness who heard and saw everything. They are all telling lies together. I feel so alone too - except for this site.
I am just hoping that in the end truth will prevail over lies. Hopefully they will slip up with the lies and be found out.
As far as you are concerned, all you can do is keep telling the truth - but you should not be facing this alone. I don't really know enough of precedures to suggest who should be helping you. I think it should be your union rep. Keep on to him and get him to fight for you. You pay your union fees for this.
Can he put you in touch with someone legal through the union?
It really does seem that you and I are guilty until we can prove our innocence. This should not be the case here in England!
Thank for your reply Dotchas. I have received letter this morning informing me i am going to have to go to another disciplinary on 16th of jan. I know all they are alleging is lies but what can i do, i feel so damned helpless and alone.Please someone tell me what i can do ?
Hi,yes I am still working there (well when I am not on sick!).I work for the NHS and my grievance is about my pay from a previous period of sick leave.It hasn't affected me in my workplace as my immediate boss agrees with me that I am due the money.But HR are denying they have to pay it ( and have been for nearly 2 years!) So its a very different situation to yours. I suppose mine is more straighforward as we are pursuing it as Illegal withholding of wages.Its my union rep who is dealing with it all.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Dotchas, are you still working for the same employer whist your grievance is being investigated? If you are, how has it affected you in the workplace? I spoke to my union rep couple of days ago and he seems very flippant, when i mentioned about tribunals and grievances he said they haven't taken any money off you or sacked you so whats the point, which was a little uninspiring. Did you have a solicitor to help you with your case going to tribunal? Sorry to ask so many questions but my time is running out if i am going to lodge a grievance and just need to know if its worth me getting help to carry it through?
I have been following this thread and want to wish you all the best in clearing your name.
Re the Tribunal and the 3 month time limit.You can lodge a case with the Tribunal Board while the grievance is ongoing,and then the Tribunal can be delayed (sisted)while the grievance runs its course as long as the case was lodged within the 3 months.So get onto your rep and get a tribunal lodged.
I have a grievance running against my employer from almost 2 years ago and a case was lodged with the Employment Tribunal 3 months after that and has been delayed for 3 months at a time to allow us to exhaust the grievance procedure.Roll on 29th January for next grievance hearing! LOL!
I feel the same Christiane, the person who has made the allegations against me is a puppy to the managers if they say jump she will say how high, yet she is crap at her job as my residents who she now works with tell me. But if you think about it rationally, they are getting scared if they are starting to talk of having witnesses, they know their case does not have legs so they obviously need others to substantiate it, which proves how pathetic their case is if that is all the evidence against you they have. Have you rg the drc? they are great at telling you what your chances are at a tribunal.Do not give up fighting as long as you know they are lying you have to fight. Don't forget the low days you had when u fought bc and look where you are now, a winner.
Mounties - Just to give you an update on me. I have just heard via my solicitor what I am accused of. Lies! lies! lies! and they have found a witness - a close friend of the 'bullies'. How can you stand up to them when they find witnesses who also lie!! I feel very low at the moment - Christiane x
Regarding the man who helps with lifting, if you write in your tribunal statement that you received no help from him and he is questioned or has to make a statement at the tribunal to that effect, he can't lie or he will be committing perjury which is serious stuff. I wouldn't approach anyone for individual statements because as you say, it puts them in a difficult situation.. Just write everything down and let the tribunal people ask the questions to the appropriate people and they will spot a lie easily. Also, did you have a return to work interview after you first came back? Your line manager should have done that, recording what you can and can't do. If they didn't, they have also left themselves wide open.
Thank you to both, There is no occ health where i work Kelly as it is a small charity, but i do take your point that the element of proof is on their shoulders not mine. I spoke to a colleague yesterday and asked him if he would be willing to write a statement saying that as he is the person who helps everyone out with heavy lifting and shopping, that he had never been allowed to help me. Sadly he said no. I can understand as he has to keep a roof over his head, but is this lack of help from colleagues going to make my case harder to win? When i spoke to the drc they seemed to think that as i have 3 months and a day to lodge a grievance re the shopping, heavy lifting and bullying, my employers will probably make sure i receive the outcome of their stupid investigations just after that point, leaving me unable then to raise a grievance or go to a tribunal. I went back to the Gp yesterday and fortnately he has put me on the sick again for further 2 weeks, he even said " Did you kill someone, or cause the death of someone?", when i said no, he even asked why its all taking o long to be resolved. I am just writing a letter to the chairman in the hope he can give me an answer to when this all ends. Thank you again xx
If they didn't give you any help with heavy lifting, isn't this evidence? They would have to prove that they did and how. If you look at it this way perhaps there are things they would have to prove they had done, if you see what I mean. Perhaps if the Disability Discrimination people could give you an idea of what support you should have expected, your employers would have to prove that they provided the support. Sorry if this doesn't make sense. Where occupation health involve when you returned to work?
Mounties - I know it's difficult, but try and get as much evidence as you can.
I obtained as many emails and letters that I could off people as evidence however flimsy they may be and also I have asked people for character statements. It helps to build up a picture. The solicitor didn't ask me to do these but I just did them and gave them to him. He is grateful and they are there in place if he needs them. The doctor is prepared to write one too as he has known me a long time and has seen what has happened to me over the last year whilst this dispute has been going on.
Despite doing all this, my problem is still escalating but January should see it go one way or the other. If it is the 'other' that means another year of major stress with the case.
I am having alternative therapy to help me cope.
I am sorry that in your case they basically called you a liar with your grievance against your line manager. I had the same at a meeting I went to. Please, if you can, try and find any proof you can to back up what you say - even if its a diary. Perhaps your colleagues whom you trust may be prepared to write something for you as evidence. I know it's difficult when you are not there any more. Perhaps people you have known a long time may be prepared to write a statement about your character.
It's hard work and stressful - but the more you can do the better. Having said that, I am still fighting a year on.....
Been to see Gp this morning and he has kept me on sick for a further 2 weeks, He could not believe this investigation is still carrying on after 2 months and advised me to write a strongly worded letter to ask for date of conclusion. Christiane and Catkin, when you started your fight back against the bullies did you have actual evidence to back up your claims as proof of how u had been treated? Did you continue to work whilst the investigations by your employers were continuing?
And Christiane, i think thats the point of all the horrible stuff you are having to go through, you are proving to them you are not anyone's sitting target.
I rang DRC on thurs and they were really helpful and as you said Caz they give you a personal advisor which is nice not having to tell your story over again.They have advised me to start grievance proceedings against them so that i can then go to an tribunal on the grounds of no help with heavy lifting and over supervision.Apprently this constitutes discrimination. Only thing that worries me about this is lack of evidence as i have no actual proof apart from my word against theirs that they have treated me like this. Christiane, did you have actual evidence which you provided your solicitor with to help fight your case? I got the results of my grievance against my line manager on fri and surprise surprise i lost as they basically called me a liar, so what chance do i stand?
Hope you got your new sick note OK. You ARE not ready for work.
I have been to the solicitors today about my own bullying problem. Things are hotting up - just in time for Christmas! My last Christmas was spoilt with it all and it looks as though this one may be the same. Will it never end?
I can answer my own question - it is reaching a climax now - but still stressful - but there is one consolation, they are not having an easy ride!! I am not the pushover they thought I was.
Hope you are OK.
Thank you Caz for your reply and helpful numbers. I have rg Acas several times now and yes they have been amazed at how i am being treated but have never offerred me a persoanl advisor. How fantastic that would feel. I will ring the Drc tomorrow as i am getting so sick and tired of all this and my sick note runs out on Mon i don't feel ready to go back to work yet but at the same time want to get this stupid fight over with before it kills me off. Thank you so much Caz and i'll let you know how i get on.
For various reasons it's a long time since I've been on the boards.
I came to look at your thread, expecting that, since my last post (Page 2 of your thread, I think), you would have resolved this. How wrong I was. I can't believe what I am reading. I'm so sorry you are still fighting this.
Please, please, please, RING THE DRC AND ACAS.
Like you, I didn't want to - it somehow made it more 'formal' and frankly I was scared, but they WILL HELP YOU.
I'm sorry to shout, but I'm in tears of anger reading this - not at you *hugs* but that this kind of thing is still going on. My first contact with the Disability Rights Commission was via their website www.drc-gb.org where I was able to email a brief resume of what had happened. They responded and I then spoke to them by phone. They were great and so helpful. I quote:
"As you have stated that you have breast cancer and have received treatment, you have rights under the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) 1995. This is because since 5th December 2005, individuals with cancer have the protection of the DDA from the point of diagnosis".
ACAS also were equally were extremely helpful on the phone to me, and without either of them I wouldn't have had had the confidence to fight back - and WIN! They gace advise and gave me a personal advisor name that I could stay in touch with.
It was amazing how, once I got them involved the people I work for changed their attitude - they had to, none of this 'informal meeting' tosh - they knew I meant business and they had to back down.
The phone number I have dug out from my papers for the DRC is 08457 622633
For ACAS their number is 08457 47 47 47
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ring them both - For your own both mental and physical state you have to get some help.
Love Caz x
I know what you mean about it being very lonely in a dispute situation. A lot of 'friends' suddenly disappear!
As far as my advice goes, please don't take it as gospel as correct advice, because I am not a lawyer, but it has been gained by bitter past experience.
This is your thread, and I have gained a lot from it too. I am also surprised how many of us here have suffered with bullying since breast cancer. It is an eyeopener.
Keep positive - but it's difficult at times, I know.
Thank you Christiane, you help me a great deal and knowing you are having a similar battle is a great source of inspiration to me, it can be very lonely fighting all the time. Thank you for always replying to my postings with advice, i always look forward to hearing from you, Christina xx
It's Christiane again. I hope I am helping you. I know you helped me with moral support.
Rgarding your problem, this annual leave of your union rep is the same sort of delaying tactic I have had and it does in a way, show an indication of the importance your union attaches to your case and the thinking of your union. I know how frustrating this is for you. There must be someone else who can cover your union rep's work whilst he is on annual leave. Your union is duty bound to help you.
The fact that there are several grievances going on at the same time is not relevant but as you say a further delaying tactic.
If you can't get any joy from your union at your local level, I suggest you go up a level and write to the Union General Secretary and send a copy to your local area office. You want immediate help not when he comes off his holiday and then we are into the Christmas and New Year holiday period with the invitable delays there.
I suggest all correspondence should be recorded delivery.
I am going through a very frustrating time with my case at the moment too.
I have now had a letter saying my grievance has been made against both managers, even though i only made it against one. This apprently is going to slow down the investigations into the allegations against me even more. How do i clear my name ever. I have rg union again he is now on annual leave. I know what you say about this being a site for breast cancer but surely this is relevant as all this has only happened since i went back to work after bc and as is quite clear on here i am not alone in suffering this bullying. Aren't we all here to help each other out?
I agree with what both Lanterna and maryfrod have said above.
You need to get your Union Rep (or Solicitor, or whoever) acting for you. I also suggest you do not write to your employers any more and if there are any letters to be answered that they are answered by your chosen representative.
You may be putting things in writing that should not be in writing.
Whilst you are off sick no grievances of any kind can take place.They have to wait until you return to work.I would also suggest that you have no further contact with them.
I think you seriously need to get some pro help here: kick your union full-timer into action (that's what they're paid for) and get your local rep buzzing and on your side. You've had an absolutely crap time, but this is a breast cancer site, not an HR site, so everyone here is chipping in with loads of spare-time goodwill and support. And that's brilliant, but ultimately it's you and your allies at work (union or whoever) who will protect your livelihood and right to work.
So you go, girl, form those alliances and apply the boot where it's needed. There'll be loads of women here cheering you on. We live in tough times, socially, economically, and personally.
I wish you the very best of luck, truly.
Can anyone help me with this query? I sent a letter to manager few days ago telling him what Gp had said about effects stress can have on odds of cancer reocurring and that i should stay on sick until decison has been made as to what action they intend to take against me. Received letter from manager today saying how sorry he is i am suffering from stress and that he wants to help me manage it, which is a joke seeing as he is reason for it, He has also said that he cannot conclude his investigations whilst grievance i have put in against other manager is being investigated. Does anyone know if this is correct, as grievance i have lodged has nothing at all to do with these allegations or investigations, would really appreciate some help with this one?