Primary + Secondary Diagnosis = Double Whammy!

I’m starting a thread for those in this extreme situation, so we can share it’s unique ezperience. (BCC - could we have a sub-category on the left hand side?!)

My diagnosis in Nov 12 was for grade 3 aggressive bc, with secondaries in liver & lung. I’ve felt similar to the chemo group running from Dec, but my thought process has been different because of the secondary prognosis. I join the seondaries live chat on Tues eves, but some others are further down the line and may have been on the bc journey for many years.

Finally, to offer hope - after chemo with herceptin, my secondaries have virtually gone for now and I’ve been offered a breast lumpectomy (WLE).

Sarah.

Hi Sarah SP… (wave and wink)
Quite a few of us on here who had double whammy. Mine was in 2006 (bc+bone mets), liver mets dx 2009. Not a Herceptin gal myself but it is a wonder drug for some, glad you had such good results.
Hopefully others will post on this thread - it’s a peculiarity of the current Forum software that some posts don’t get noticed till there is a reply.
(hug)

Hi there, another in the double whammy club, I was diagnosed in 2003, bone mets and bc.

and another bc + bone mets July 2012 xxx

Hi I was dx with bc (but they could not locate primary…just confirm it was bc) and bone mets in May 2009.Liver mets dx in Dec 2012.

L xx

Me too - bc and bone mets dx jan 2013 (lung hotspot still tbc). I have been following february valentines chemo thread (been a great suppport group of ladies). Also i have now been offered wle and anc after chemo (surgery previously off table), been told it doesnt change prognosis and have also been told a lot of surgeons wouldnt perform the surgery but hey ho the majority of team have decided it is a good idea so i am scheduled for op on 18th june.

Aml46 - I wish my medical team had offered me surgery after I was d/g with bc + mets in Oct.2009!
I am very concerned about this business of whether/not surgery should be offered and indeed recommended, particularly if bone mets are small, or there is uncertainty. Please read my profile for my own experience.
I am really interested in knowing what reason your medical team gave you, to recommend surgery for you?
Jen.

Hi Jen
Just read your profile!!! dont know what to say other than what a mind f**k it all must have been for you, no wonder you are putting a complaint in.
Depending who i speak to (surgeon or oncologist) i get a different reason for surgery now being recommended. Surgeon said it wouldnt do me any harm as it is a relatively low risk op and i am considered young and fit (46 and overweight!), also said there were some trials in USA getting done just now on women with bc and secondary bone mets and although it is too soon for results to be known, that if in say 5 years time they are showing positive results then i will be glad it has been done.
Oncologist said my case was quite unusual as at moment i only have one bone met on my spine and usually if there is spread to bones it appears in more than one solitary place. He also said if we could remove/reduce the chance of reoccurence/spread of the primary whilst i was relatively strong and healthy then we should do it. He was also the one who told me it was a decision that was reached after much debate and that a lot of surgeons would not have agreed to do the surgery.
Think the result of ct scan mid chemo tipped the scales when it showed that tumour had responded well to chemo - reducing by over a third - lung hotspot showed no change, and no further spread on spine at moment.
btw all i know so far about my bc is that it is ER+ and HER2-
I have just finished 6FEC and have been having zometa along with fec every 3 weeks. After surgery i will be getting rads (15days), moving from zometa to denosumab injections every 4 weeks along with tamoxifen and calcium tablets. Then the waiting and hoping for stability begins!!!

Not sure if this helps you in any way, but just holler if you need or want any more information.

x

Aml46 - What your surgeon and oncologist said makes complete sense to me, not only with regard to the way my BC has gone, but also because of what I’ve been reading about BC and bone mets, surgery and tumour load reduction. Your onc. sounds good. Having the surgery they’ve offered isn’t without its problems as you know - SE’s from ANC, like numbness in armpit - but I would rather have had my m/x and ANC 3 years ago, and gotten rid of the breast tumour, than had to go through all this recent treatment.
Jen.

Jen, if you have not already, I would speak to a Solicitor who specialises in medical negligence. These are the issues I would want to discuss with my Solicitor:

(1) At the outset, it appears there was a misdiagnosis, in that your doctors diagnosed secondary cancer in the bone when in actual fact this was not the case . The question I would be asking my solicitor here is did doctors follow correct procedures in their original investigation and diagnosis. Your solicitor (or you), could ask to view your medical notes to see if there was any doubt expressed at the time about whether the hot spots were in fact bone mets. If doubts were expressed why were they not investigated before giving such a damning diagnosis?

I don’t think the issue about whether you should have been offered a mastectomy at the outset is really a legal issue, because your doctors would argue they were just following establisehd protocols. At the time, they believed your cancer had already spread to the bone, and that surgery would not be beneficial (as you probably know, there is an ongoing debate within the medical profession about the efficacy of surgery for those with secondary cancer with many doctors believing it is slows spread, and others believing it makes no difference, and can aid spread).

(2) However, I think there may be legal questions to answer about whether the delay and type of investigation carried out when doubts were raised over whether you actually had secondary cancer in the bone was reasonable and put you at increaed risk. When your doctors first began to question whether you actually had bone metastases, they should, in my opinion, have instigated a prompt appropriate investigation to determine the facts one way or the other (probably incorporating a bone biopsy). They then could have re-staged your cancer, at an earlier point, and initiated a whole new treatment regime (a mastectomy being the first line of treatment). Instead they delayed for almost a year and as a result your cancer was not re-staged, and treatment was delayed (in particular a mastectomy). As a result you did not receive a mastectomy until after the tumour in your breast had re-grown back and had became a much more aggressive type of cancer (changing it’s receptor fron just ER+ to Her2+ and ER+).

Thus I would want to ask my Solicitor several questions. (1) Given the original alleged misdiagnosisi, were the original investigation and diagnosis carried out properly (2) When doubts were raised about whether you had bone metastases or not, was the subsequent delay, and method of investigation reasonable. (3) Did this delay and investigation cause loss in terms of delaying appropriate treatment, leading to more aggressive cancer /increased risk/ worse prognisis.

Hopefully, with only 4 out of 19 nodes effected, you have had a lucky escape, but your doctirs should be required to answer these questions properly, and I doubt they will do that with just a letter of complaint.

This is just my opinion, and I would urge you to seek legal advice.

I was diagnosed with primary BC in November 2009. I had a mastectomy with lymph node clearance in January 2010, and this revealed most of the 23 nodes removed were infected. This prompted a CT and in February 2010 I was diagnosed with bone mets (three mets in the skull).So primary diagnosis and secondary diagnosis were virtually simultaneous.
I then had six cycles of FEC, followed by conventional radiotherapy to my MX site, underarm and neck. Following this I was put on Letrozole endocrine therapy, as my cancer was strongly ER+. In October 2010 I received Cyberknife stereotactic radiotherapy for my skull mets (I was the first person in the UK to have CK for bone mets and the mets in my skull have never returned).
Everything was fine until November 2011 when I experienced severe pain in my neck and mets were discovered in my spine. I then had conventional RT which sorted the pain, and I was switched from Letrozole to Aromasin, then to Fulvestrant. By August 2012 I was told I had an infected lung node, and this prompted a biopsy of a another node in my chest to see why none of the endocrine therapies were working. This biopsy showed that my cancer had changed it’s receptor, and instead of being strongly ER+, my cancer was now strongly Her2 +. Thus in September 2012 I was switched from endocrine therapy to Capecitabine and Herceptin.
Again everything was OK and I was told that what they earlier thought was an infected lung node was probably scar tissue caused by radiotherapy. However, at Christmas 2012 I was taken into hospital with an infected seroma, which eventually ruptured and required emergency plastic surgery to repair the hole in my chest (the seroma had been ongoing since my mx at my local Hospital). As the infection had caused me to collapse at home, this also prompted an MRI of my head, which revealed 5 small brain metastases. I was then switched to Lapatanib and Capecitabine (as Herceptin cannot cross the blood brain barrier), and WBRT was considered/ However, as my cancer is asymptomatic, WBRT was not deemed appropriate as the side effects would currently outweigh the benefit, and instead I have been referred for Cyberknife stereotactic RT again at the Royal Marsden (if I have it I will again become a record holder as the first in the UK to have it for both bone and organ mets).

So her I am in June 2013. I’m not desperately frightened of having brain mets. The fact is brain mets are normally considered bad news because they usually occur at the end of extensive spread elsewhere, and mets have retreated to the brain to escape the effects of chemo (as most chemo’s cannot cross the blood brain barrier). in my case, I have very limited spread elsewhere, and so the brain mets have a long way to go before they can kill me. Also, the advent of stereotactic RT has meant brain mets can be treated in a way that was not possible five years ago. Unlike WBRT stereotactic RT is highly accurate and can therefore be repeated. So to a certain extent, doctors can treat brain mets like mole hills - as they pop up, keep bashing them down.

As an NHS patient, I’m very lucky to be treated by a brilliant, famous, and innovative professor of Oncology. When I was first diagnosed at my local Hospital I was told my cancer was veery aggressive and given 18 - 24 months to live. I have now been on the go for three and a half years, and still feel fit and healthy. Also Having met other patients who have lived with brain mets for three years or more, I believe I have at least another two years if not more.

Hello girls, hello Sarah.
I was diagnosed with BC at the end of 2010 (30th of December!) just after my 39th birthday. I had some back pain before even I have felt the lump in my breast. Initial stagging : CT, MRI and bone scan showed an “abnormality” in lumbar area but gave it as non-cancerous.Possible injury. My breast tumour was grade 3, ER+ HER- Had chemo (X6 FEC), lumpectomy with axila clearance followed by rads. After 1st session of chemo back pain gone but I was seeing a chiropractor at the time and I assumed it was down to his treatment. Finished all treatments Aug 2011. I was on Tamoxifen. Periods started again. By November 2011 back pain returned. December 2011 I had my first annual mamogram- all cleared. I was so happy :slight_smile:
Saw a Neurosurgeon January 2012 for back pain. He ordered an MRI of my spine. Then a CT. Next he moved my follow up forward- he informed me that the lumbar lession was cancer and it had spread in more places in my spine. June 2012 I diagnosed with liver mets too…
I had metastatic breast cancer from the start of this journey but I didn’t know it…

Thank you all for sharing your stories here, hopefully this will help people new to the site facing this extra scary diagnosis.
Sarah.x

Hi Jen
I very rarely come on this site these days - not even sure this message will work. I did today because I was hoping to see comments about “Breast Cancer Trials ‘failing to save younger patients’.” I’ve been travelling the complaints route for 6 years now and it’s not for the faint hearted - stressful, time consuming and very expensive. If I were to offer you any sensible advice it would be to make sure you have a copy of your medical records in hand. It is only what is written down that will be of any help to you and healthcare professionals are very good at omitting relevant details from your notes. Good luck with it all.
Jeannie51

[color=#000000]Thankyou Lemongrass, Jeannie51 and girls - I am glad of your responses to my posts.

[color=#000000]I do have a copy of my medical notes. Just reading through these notes again this evening has been quite dispiriting, but I will carry on with getting the doctors to answer my questions properly – will think about the best way to achieve this.

[color=#000000]To go from the 28/10/09: ‘there are spotty sclerotic areas throughout the thoracic and lumbar spine and also within the pelvis. Findings would be consistent with bony metastatic disease’ to 28.1.13: ‘We have come to the conclusion that the evidence for bony metastatic disease in this patient is tenuous. The small unchanged sclerotic lesions could well be related to a benign bone dysplasia.’

[color=#000000]I want to know what took them so long?? This has impacted on my treatment, and it’s been hard emotionally going through recent/ongoing treatment knowing that I had 3 years previously with a probable secondary mis-diagnosis. Prior to m/x in October I came onto the BCC forums and didn’t know whether I should post as a primary or secondary! I was in a real muddle!

[color=#000000]I don’t know how things will go – fingers crossed, eh?

[color=#000000]Jen. xx

Jen I can’t imagine how upsetting this is for you. The almost casual way your doctors mention that what they thought were bone mets probably represent benign bone dysplacia, shows that they have no idea of what they have put you through. All of us with secondary cancer, know what a secondary diagnosis means emotionally, and you have been put through that emotional roller coaster for three years (not to mention all the unnecessary treatment as well). At the very least you deserve a written apology.
I personally think that if your doctors had confirmed diagnosis with a bone biopsy, you would not have been put through all this. The problem is, NICE guidance says doctors should not do biopsies, unless the primary cancer was never biopsied. This works against cancer patients, not just because it could increase the risk of misdiagnois, but because it allows changes to a cancers receptor status to go unseen. Cancer can and does change it’s receptor (studies suggest in 30% of cases), and without this knowledge the patient will not receive appropriate treatment - and will possibly have to endure the side effects of inappropriate treatment.
I really think this NICE guideline is something that charities like BCC should be working to change. This guideline may have been supported by medical evidence when it was first devised, but there have been studies since which show that cancer frequently changes it’s receptor, and two Profs at my hospital say it is incredibly common. Patients should not be subjected to very toxic treatments without a proper dignosis, and this guideline prevents that happening.

I agree with lemon grove about seeing a solicitor Jen, if you are a member of a union at all then you’ve probably got free legal advice as part of your membership package and that would be a great place to start.

Dear Jen, I’m pleased you have a copy of your medical notes. Their content appears quite detailed and this should be helpful to you when taking matters further. My GP was not a good note keeper and this has made things difficult for me. She did however, write that my breasts were a bit lumpy but benign. You may well ask how she could say they were benign without a biopsy. I have questioned this all along but it seems to go unnoticed. It may be helpful to you to seek outside independent medical/legal advice on what they think the content of your medical notes would mean with regards to a medical negligence claim. Sometimes even the most obvious can be twisted and turned. I say this purely to be helpful. If you think I can help you in any way please send me a private message as I don’t want say much on this site because of my legal situation.
Lemongrove - I am with you all the way with regards to charities working to change the weaknesses in the guidelines. They should be gutsy enough to do so. I am a four year misdiagnosed breast cancer lady who at one time was helping 6 other misdiagnosed ladies - 4 came from this site. All were younger than age 50 and should have had access to the system much quicker. Three at least are no longer with us. In 2005 when I got my cancer I had swelling, thickening and two armpit lumps - GP refused me a mammogram and said my symptoms were the remains of a viral infection and as I was under the age of 50 I was not entitled to NHS screening. Armpit lumps were not mentioned in the SIGN (Scotland) guidelines at the time. Now, how crazy is that? Although they were mentioned in all breast cancer awareness leaflets as something to look out for, with nothing in the guidelines the GP can be dismissive. It became obvious to me that I should spent some time campaigning for armpit lumps to be inserted into the Scottish Referral Guidelines - the guidelines used in Scotland. This was done in around 2006. You have alerted me yet another pitfall in the guidelines. What about some of the top medical people taking it forward to NICE? They must be well aware of the weaknesses. Plenty of us are falling down big black holes because the Guidelines are not capable for the job intended.
Be kind to yourselves.

Jeannie51
PS: Jen - a good place to start could be your CAB. They didn’t help me much but I have heard good stories - and it’s free. A company called AVMA was helpful and they have a list of med neg solicitors. England have so much more than Scotland.

Hi Sarah
thankyou or starting this thread I have been lurking since January shell shocked over my double whammy dx. Like Jen my bone mets are not clear.the report says my hotspots ar not a typical spread so it is a wait and see to see how treatment effects them. I have not been offered a biopsy but I have had a lumpectomy and axil clearance. So sorry to meet you all under these difficult times.
lemongrove I have read so many of your postings thankyou for your wise and informative comments .
mara

Hello Mara and welcome, well done for posting too. I’ve found the more I’ve got involved with others on this site the more it’s helped. Recently met several secondaries ladies in my local area with bone mets - they were all in relatively good shape and working, which gave me a real boost.
Sarah