I have a leaflet from Dr David Servan-Schrieber and if anyone wants a copy can they pm me for details.
Dx
I am also a big fan of the Dr David Servan-Screiber book. I wonder if those that dismiss diet have actually read this book - it footnotes over 500 research projects that support it’s recommendations, and makes a very well argued case for the role of diet and lifestyle changes. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has read it and NOT found it persuasive.
Hi finty, after reading your post I went to amazon and saw the anti-cancer pocket guide. I must admit I haven’t read all of this thread (I will do this evening) but today I made a little resolution to eat well, (healthy eating) exercise more…etc. I’ve been living well with mets for 7 years and do eat good organic food but the last few months I feel I’ve drifted a little. So I’m trying to become a bit more pro-active. Is the anti-cancer diet extremely restrictive? Dairy? I love cheese. Perhaps I can adopt some of it and tweek bits? The synopsis I read states the author is more convinced of cancer being caused by lifestyle choices rather than hereditary factors. I admit I have a problem with this as my Mum died of ovarian cancer in 2008 and due to this and other cancers in my family although I’m not a BRCA carrier my family are classed as higher risk and will now have early mammograms and ovarian screening. xx
It is pretty restrictive and recommends a complete change in priorities to making vegetables the main component of every meal, and eating only small amounts of protein. Cutting out sugar and white flour is a major part. Organic dairy is ok in small quantities if it is made from the milk of cows that are grass fed - not sure how you would know though! Would highly recommend the book - it’s a very easy read, and has made me feel much more positive about slowing the progress of my cancer.
thanks finty…I think I will purchase the book…cutting out the flour and sugar wouldn’t be too awful for me neither would making vegetables the main part of a meal. Sounds an interesting read.
x
Edited my post to add after reading here, anticancerbook.com/rules.html I think I already adhere to most of the diet…so it’s not going to be as big a change as I feared (hooray) and I will feel as though I’m doing something pro-active.
There is a (2007) studies showing that milk increases the incidence of chemically-induced breast tumors in rats. I also found a 2007 study showing that soy milk does the same thing. And another (2006) showing that fermented milk (yogurt) prevented tumors; and another (2001) showing that soy protein was preventive.
It appears that studies on things that cause or prevent tumors in rats injected with carcinogens might not provide a definitive answer to the question: Do dairy products cause breast cancer in humans?
The so-called “China Study” was a nutritional analysis conducted in rural China in the 1980s. This study purportedly found a link between the intake of animal protein and an increased risk of cancer and other disease. In the intervening 20 years, many researchers have tested this conclusion, specifically with regards to dairy and breast cancer.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18065592
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17372236
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16373955
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16596295
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15213021
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11914299
Hope these links work.
Yes, lindiloo, the links do work. Very interesting reading. Thank you. This just shows that you can find research to support or refute any theoretical link, as I mentioned before, somewhere. I’ll carry on drinking milk, then.
Ann x
Hi Ann , i too will continue drinking Milk, and also eat the many other dairy products that i enjoy, the studies above were just a brief sample , there are also quite a few more to be found on the subject.
I personaly avoid Soya as much as possible (being Er+) because of its very high concentrations of pyhtoestrogens as discussed with my oncoligist , adding more oestrogen minics to my diet than nessessary when i am trying to reduce the amount of oestrogen in my body just seems contradictory to me.
I often wonder just how much money the likes of Jane Plant and some others out there who protest to have beaten cancer by their unproven methods have made from their many various books ect from vulnerable people, with their tales of a cure. In fact i am surprised that none of these people has been given the nobel prize yet!!
Of course Everyone must make their own judgements , and do whats right for them, but being an open forum i think it is important for all of us here that all Proven credible available Data is available to us all so as we can make proper informed decisions .
All the best to everyone
Linda
Linda
As I am taking an aromatase inhibitor, rather than Tamoxifen, my logic is that it is even more important that I do not consume oestrogen (or similar), because of the way the drug works.
I agree about the huge industry that has sprung up around cancer. There are definitely people out there getting very rich on it. I really enjoy a good piece of scientific evidence and, generally speaking, many of the results are freely available on the internet.
The other thing about the books is that they become out of date really quickly, as more research is done.
Thanks again for the links, by the way.
Ann
Lindiloo
Thank you for all the links. I too agree with you on the drinking of milk issue and I will continue to eat dairy products.
Thanks again
Happy eating girls, am off to enjoy a cheese sarnie with my fav anchor butter, might even have a yogurt too if i can manage it lol, Life is for Liveing!!
Take care
Linda
Hi All,
I am curious about Linda’s statement that she avoids soya products because of the phyto oestrogens and yet she does not avoid milk which contains oestrogens which is what all the treatment we receive is trying to eliminate??
Following my diagnosis 7 years ago I have avoided dairy completely and have only had occasional bits of soya.
Like a lot of people on this thread I had a basically healthy diet pre diagnosis. I don’t think dairy gave me cancer but it just seems totally logical that if the hospital have removed my ovaries, put me for 5 years on tamoxifen that rushes round the body trying to take up the oestrogen receptor sites before any oestrogen can get there, then a further 5 years of Arimidex (3 years still to go) which stops my adrenals making any oestrogen ( the last bit of the body that makes any significant amount) because they obviously think it is vital that the oestrogen levels are as low as possible - why with all the effort, aggravation and side effects to get it out of my body would I then go and eat the stuff???
It’s a pain, but one I have accepted as I can’t get past the logic. I wouldn’t recommend such a drastic diet unless someone already had an oestrogen sensitive cancer and, like me, had a late diagnosis with lymph nodes that were still active after all the chemo. (They did the surgery after the chemo.) So basically since I can’t be sure there aren’t a few rogue cells waiting for some oestrogen fertiliser I am happy to join in the hospital’s efforts to get oestrogen out of my system.
Incidentally, I had a bone scan before I started the diet which showed I was osteopenic (stage before osteoporosis) but the bone consultant agreed to my dairy free diet with regular checks and I have not worsened in the last 7 years which is interesting. I guess I eat a fair amount of dark green veg and I like almond cake!
If I get to 15 years I have promised myself some milk treats but nothing with butter - I used to love it but if I accidentally eat some it now tastes horribly rancid - curious.
I haven’t given up sugar - now that would be a step too far…
I try to remember to take Vit D which the bone consultant said was important in preventing cancer spreading to the bones.
Hi Pascale,
In answer to your curiousity re my continuing to drink Milk but my avoidence of Soya,
It is not possible for any of us to avoid ALL oestrogens ,as oestrogens are found in many foods /products in our enviroment. Soya is and has always been a very controversial subject because of its very high content of photoestrogens , Milk in comparison has a low oestrogen content compared , most recent reliable studies have shown no direct link between Dairy and Breast Cancer and therefore untill the evidence suggests otherwise i will continue to eat Dairy products.
When i was DX with BC i changed to organic Milk and wherever possible organic foods, my reason for doing so was because of the many additives and perservatives found in our food products today, i wanted to try to reduce my exposure to the many chemicals /known carciogenics that we live with in the world today. I would like to add however that i do not think by going organic that this will “prevent” a reocurrence of BC ( Cancer is a very complex desease and likely has many different factors at play ) but rather for me i felt like it was a far healthier option.
Ive put this list of foods on the forums before so apoligies if youve seen it , but it gives an idea of the very high oestrogen content in some of our foods, and oddly enough most of these foods are hailed as good for Cancer prevention.
Table 1. Foods high in phytoestrogen content.
Phytoestrogen food sources Phytoestrogen content (µg/100g)
Flax seed
379380
Soy beans
103920
Tofu
27150.1
Soy yogurt
10275
Sesame seed
8008.1
Flax bread
7540
Multigrain bread
4798.7
Soy milk
2957.2
Hummus
993
Garlic
603.6
Mung bean sprouts
495.1
Dried apricots
444.5
Alfalfa sprouts
441.4
Dried dates
329.5
Sunflower seed
216
Chestnuts
210.2
Olive oil
180.7
Almonds
131.1
Green bean
105.8
Peanuts
34.5
Onion
32
Blueberry
17.5
Corn
9
Coffee, regular
6.3
Watermelon
2.9
Milk, cow
1.2
At the end of the day we all individualy make our own decisions regarding how/if we want to change our diets/lifestyles (none of us here are experts)but i think a lot of the many unsubstansiated claims on the internet by the likes of Jane Plant (and a few others) which is at best still only antedotal evidence , preys on peoples vulnerabilities and only serves to line the pockets of those authors.
If it was as simple as going Dairy Free we would have a cure for cancer tomorrow !!
All the best to everyone whatever side of the debate your on.
Linda x
Being triple neg and with a poor prognosis I’d nothing to lose 6+ years ago when all they could tell me was to eat everything in moderation and to go out and enjoy myself! Already a vegetarian I read the Jane Plant book and felt I’d nothing to lose by going dairy free. I really do feel fitter than in my pre bc days and haven’t had a problem with middle aged spread either, must admit though I go out for a good long brisk walk every day weather permitting!
When I was signed off at the bc clinic before Christmas my onchologist told me that when I was diagnosed they’d no idea about bc and diet, but nowadays she would recommend I do exactly what I did!!
Josie x
Linda
Isn’t the difference in your list that the plants contain phytoestrogens which are known to block the oestrogen receptors on hormone positive cancer cells and prevent oestrogen binding to them, whereas dairy and meat products contain actual oestrogen which is presumed to stimulate the cell growth?
Finty,
I would be realy interested to see any scientific studies you know of which prove the link between Dairy and BC ? Soya and photoestrogens remains controversial to many in the medical profession, including my oncoligist.
So if you could show me any proven studies showing which photoestrogens are known without doubt and have been proven to block oestrogen receptors on hormone + cancers i would appreiciate it.
Thanks
Linda
Hi,for a few years before I was diagnosed I took Menopace a supplement for before,during and after the menopause which contains phytoestrogens.I have now seen a warning saying “Some women need to be cautious of taking these supplements - e.g. if they are currently suffering from Breast cancer or other hormone dependent tumours. Some breast surgeons and oncologists believe that even the tiny amounts of estrogen can have an adverse effect”…Interesting.
Mel xx
Hi Linda. I know of no studies that prove a link. With regard to dairy - I know of no way of conducting an experiment that isolates one component of a diet and proving or disproving a link with cancer - it simply can’t be done in human studies as the time scale is too long and there are far too many variables. So you will almost certainly never get the proof you seek. What we do have are laboratory (micro) and population (macro) studies. The macro studies are well known - it is undeniable that countries with no history of eating dairy products, and with high consumption of phytoestrogens (soya etc) have significantly lower incidences of breast cancer (and prostate and ovarian cancers), and specifically hormone responsive breast cancers and aggressive breast cancers.
Then we have the laboratory studies with cancer cell cultures or rodents implanted with bc tumours, where substances found in dairy (eg IGF1) stimulate tumour growth, and phytochemicals have been shown to slow tumour growth or even prevent tumours forming or kill existing. For instance it has been found that grape seed extract acts as a very effective aromatase inhibitor in rats with hormone responsive bc.
So the population studies almost perfectly reflect what the laboratory studies are finding. That is, that a diet low in animal products, specifically dairy, and high in phytochemicals from vegetables and grains and specifically phytoestrogens is associated with significantly lower levels of breast cancer, particularly hormone responsive cancers. Of course other factors may well be involved - almost certainly are.
So then what do we do with this information? Many choose to ignore or discount it, because the evidence is not conclusive, as you do. That’s fine. But I am stage 4 so to me, it seems a no-brainer to alter my diet in the hope that the theory holds. And I don’t think it is a forlorn hope - it make sense to me that a product whose purpose is to promote rapid cell growth in baby cows, could if consumed over very long periods (in my case virtually every day for 50 years) cause confusion and inappropriate cell growth in humans. And to copy the diet of countries with low cancer rates seems a very sensible step. There are many anecdotal stories of cancer sufferers having success with an anti cancer diet, but I am unaware of any whose cancer has suddenly progressed after a such change of diet - so there seems nothing to lose, and potentially plenty to gain. If Prof Plant and the other authors gains a quid or two in royalties from me in the process, then I consider it money very well spent - and I thank them for their contribution to the debate.
As for phytoestrogens - there is certainly disagreement. It does seem to me though that there are more studies suggesting a protective role when the food (usually soya) is eaten in normal dietary quantities. The adverse research seems to concern high dosage supplements, and the studies that have shown no protective effect allowed inclusion of tiny levels of consumption.
But I do want to be clear that I do not in any way believe that a change in diet will always make a significant difference, there are simply too many other factors in play with bc - but I think there’s a good chance it will contribute to a better prognosis.
I’ll post the links when I have time - hopefully tonight.
finty
Hi all,
I still think we are making this too complicated. I am sure that breast cancer has many causes but with oestrogen sensitive cancers we KNOW that oestrogen makes these cancer cells grow quicker, that is why we take tamoxifen and/or arimidex etc to either reduce the effect of any oestrogen or to stop making it. It is very straightforward. These medicines have gone a huge way to improving our survival and cure rates. So why go to all that effort to then undo it by eating more of the stuff?
For me the jury is still out regarding soya. It seems to act rather like tamoxifen, taking up the oestrogen receptor sites but giving a milder oestrogenic effect. (Tamoxifen helps protect against osteoporosis - as oestrogen does.)
But we know oestrogen is to be avoided. Following chemo I am post menopausal. My ovaries were removed 2 years after chemo as they began to grow cysts. After 5 years of Tamoxifen, and post menopause the only bit producing significant amounts of oestrogen are the adrenals which is what Arimidex shuts down. So WHY put it back in the body again?
Having said all that oestrogen makes you feel better, hence hormone replacement therapy, and life is for living, and as I ticked few of the boxes for getting cancer in the first place I don’t believe anything we do can bring us absolute certainty. Humans are too complicated to be able to control much. But… western medicine has definitely improved our lot by targeting oestrogen in the body so for me it is a no brainer to cut out dairy to try to help.
I have several friends with breast cancer none of whom have cut out dairy but they caught the cancer earlier. I think I would not feel the need to be as vigilant if I were in their shoes. Each of our cases is individual and complex.
Pascale
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en-gb.www.mozilla.com/en-GB/firefox/central/
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Regarding my point that it would be almost impossible to conduct a study in humans to directly link diary to breast cancer - the following is such a study linking a vegan diet to slower progression in early stage prostate cancer. It is very unusual to to have such a study:
en-gb.www.mozilla.com/en-GB/firefox/central/e cancer:
The reason such a study can be done here is that prostate cancer has discernible markers (PSA) so can be observed without treatment in its early stages. This study (the link is just an abstract, you have to read linked studies to get full details) took men with prostate cancer and changed their diet to a near vegan diet, plus exercise and counselling - and found a noticeable impact on the development of their cancer (the effect was 8x the control group). Prostate cancer like breast cancer is hormone related. It’s interesting reading - and supports one of Prof Plant’s main claims re dairy and prostate cancer.