Linda I’m glad you read the study - and I agree with almost all your points. I totally agree that exercise and some form of emotional support are important - but I don’t agree that walking 30 mins a day is difficult! I’m sure most of us do much more exercise than that. And isn’t posting here a support group? So that ticks off 2 from the list!
The study can only study those that are available to take part - and they were early stage prostate cancer sufferers, and it followed them for a year. But the results were not inconclusive - even if the study is small, there are well understood significant confidence levels that adjust for sample size, and my understanding is that the findings were outside these boundaries - ie statistically significant. (I will get my mathematician husband to confirm this - or not as the case may be - when he gets home much later.)
The study did look at spread - but there was no spread for the diet group, and sufficient spread in the control cohort for 6 members to require medical intervention, measured in all cases by PSA level and MRI scans. Survival wasn’t relevant as all members survived the year - although I am contacting the author to see if there is any follow up. I very much hope there is.
The plan may be hard to follow for some - probably more so for older men, who I suspect made up most of this group being studied - probably the least likely profile to consider a vegan diet appetising if my father and his friends are anything to go by! But that not the point - I was asked for evidence that it worked - not whether it was fun.
I agree entirely with Lichtenfeld - I would never consider for a second following a diet plan instead of conventional treatments - but I do follow one in addition to everything my onc can offer me. But I do find it interesting that in this study diet and lifestyle changes did work on their own, as this group had rejected medical intervention.
Prostate and breast cancers are of course different, but they also have similarities in that they are both largely hormone driven. But there isn’t a cohort of breast cancer suffers that can be studied this way - so this is all we will ever get in terms of studying cancer and diet in live cancer groups without medical intervention - prostate cancer is unique in that regard. But the reason that I mentioned this study in the first place is that it confirms what the much reviled Prof Plant had written regarding prostate cancer. She is accused of having no evidence to support her claims that prostate cancers following her diet have been able to keep their PSA levels low enough to not require treatment - well, now there is some evidence. Maybe she just got lucky - but maybe she is on to something after all!
The one thing that I get frustrated at is the constant refrain that even if it was proven to work, it would probably be too difficult for most people to follow. Really? So if were proven that diet could regulate early stage breast cancer, you wouldn’t give it a shot? It took me about two weeks reading to sort out a diet plan, and another two weeks to source everything I needed and get into the habit of buying the different ingredients. It really wasn’t much effort - certainly not much more effort than I would normally put into researching and booking a holiday. Since I believe in its efficacy, I don’t find it at all difficult to follow. In fact it has surprised me that after failing at so many diets over the years - this one is a breeze to stick to. And I’ve lost 1.5 stone without even trying to lose weight - best diet ever!
This thread and others like it continue to astound me!
It would seem that there are more people trying to dispute any evidence on the benefits of a good diet rather than encourage others to try to embrace to benefits of eating for life. It am also surprised at how few people are prepared to put the effort in to making changes. (not really those on this thread!)
Definitive evidence on diet will be virtually impossible to obtain, because of so many variables and because so many people don’t really have an idea of what a truly healthy diet is. Although sometimes it seems as if I spend hours preparing food and chopping vegetables, but I eat a great variety of food and less than 10% if my diet is refined food. It takes effort, but the tangible benefits are so great that it is hard to believe that there is not many more less tangible benefits
Yoga, exercise, removing carcinogens and synthetic oestrogens are also very important.
I agree Gretchen but I think there is a lot of cognitive dissonance when people are asked to consider changing their lifestyles - whatever form the change takes. Most people believe they are doing things right in most aspects of their lives - relationships, diet, child rearing etc, and they will look for the evidence that supports what they are doing, and refute the evidence that is contrary. It’s perfectly natural and I think I do it a lot too - I was initially very sceptical about complementary treatments and it’s only because the stakes are so high for me that I started looking at diet and other issues, and was very surprised by what I found. I was a head in the sand girl before!
My friends dad was diagnosed with early prostate cancer 10 years ago, and it was only last year that they suggested any kind of treatment before that he was just monitored.His Oncologist told him when he was first diagnosed that he would probably die of old age not the cancer.So I think the 1 year study is worthless really.On the subject of diet and prostate cancer I was reading an article about Dirk Benedict who used to be in the A-team,he was diagnosed with prostate cancer in the seventy’s and was advised to have surgery,but he refused and instead changed to a macrobiotic diet and is cancer free.
Ladies ,
With respect i think you are missing the point, i certainly have no problems with anyone wanting to follow a particular diet if they feel that that is the right way to go for them, i respect your views, equaly i think you need to respect others, this thread needs to give a balanced view on all the available evidence to date, it is important, it is important because only then can people make informed decisions and choices for themselves.
Finty , if i believed that giving up Dairy would drasticly improve my chances of survival from this desease i would give it up in an instance! no question about it, i am in fact a very open minded person , but i cant subscribe to any flimsy antedotal evidence and just keep my fingers crossed ,i do accept the many studies that have been done relating to Dairy and breast cancer and which to date have still not found a link!! , these are reputeable studies, and im sorry but the facts are that at the moment there is NO proven connection.
I have changed many things since being DX with BC, i have done so because im fed up of all the chemicals and perservatives in our food and products today , i eat organic, all meals in my house are cooked fresh from scratch(No ready pre packed meals) no processed foods,i dont cook with plastics /teflons ,i use organic shampoos,use mineral only make up,and i like you have binned most of the cleaning products from my home, i also avoid parabens ,i no longer use deorderants and i dont drink Alcohol (never have) . So i think peoples assumptions that some of us think “things are just to much effort or too hard to change” is a bit of a cop out.
I know you feel passionately about the non Dairy route and that is fine , but not everyone shares this view , we all do our own research and we all come to our own conclusions, lets face it none of us here are the “Experts” however much we research this desease, my trust is with my medical team ,their advice , and the scientific evidence that is available .
One thing BC has taught me is that life is for liveing, to grab it by the Ba**s and enjoy every single second ,i wont spend my time being miserable because i cant have this ,or i cant have that ,when and IF the evidence tells me different believe me i will be the first in the que!!!
Its always good to have these debates because i think we can all learn something from it, but like all these debates at the end of the day none of us has the answers .
We are all different, and we all have different views. lets just accept and respect that.
Linda x
Melly I agree 1 year is no time in terms of prostate cancer which can be every slow growing. But what is highly significant from the study is that the vegan diet groups’ serum was shown to have EIGHT TIMES the ability of the non-vegan group to kill cancer cells. That’s the holy grail of complementary cancer treatment - being able to fight off your own cancer cells. I don’t see how that can possibly be described as worthless - what more could you ask for?
Linda I only made the comment about things being too difficult because this was the reason you gave yourself for people not making changes a few posts above - so I am confused by your reaction.
I completely agree we should all make our own minds up. I have never suggested anyone should change or ever started a thread with that intention - I have only ever responded to posts requesting information, or defended my own views from criticism - I am careful not to try and impose my views on others, but I will fight my corner. And one last point - I still don’t see how the prostate study can be considered flimsy evidence, if that is what you were referring to.
Maybe worthless was not the right word.My friend’s dad hasn’t changed anything in his diet I think the only thing he did was to drink pomegranate juice and his cancer didn’t progress for 9 years.I’m not saying that changes don’t work,how would I know that
Finty, the comment about things being too difficult in my earlier post was not my view, it was quoted by Lichtenfeld about that particular study as the reason that 3 men pulled out because it was very strict and difficult to follow, the study was conducted in 2005 ,5 yrs on many men are still dying of prostrate cancer, the study concluded that the strict diet and lifestyle change “May” play an important role in keeping prostrate cancer at bay , but at the same time the study was conducted on men with early low agressive slow growing cancers and according to my oncoligist these types of tumours can be present for many many years and for some people they would be that old that they would die of other causes before the cancer would ever kill them.
Lichtenfeld says further studies still need to be done, for a proven link to be established they would need to conduct much larger studies with a lot longer follow up and not just on less aggressive tumours.
Linda x
Sorry Linda, I misinterpreted your comment. Still, if only 3 from a study of 93 gave up (I don’t know what the split between active and control was) - I don’t see much of a problem. I wonder what the average fall out from studies such as these is?
In terms of the use of the words “may” - scientific research is always couched in extremely cautious terms, with good reason. Saying diet MAY play an important apart in keeping prostate cancer at bay is actually pretty striking.
Obviously it would be wonderful if longer terms studies were conducted, but whatever Lichtenfeld wants surely it’s clear that a study such as this won’t ever happen on more aggressive tumours? It would be totally unethical to allow such a study on anyone with an aggressive cancer - and who in their right mind would agree to take part? Anyone with an aggressive cancer is going to be advised to receive conventional medicine. There are in fact a very small number of people who do reject the treatment and try a diet based treatment - some people have claimed remarkable success, but then this falls in the anecdotal evidence category, and is interesting but worthless scientifically - and always dismissed out of hand by the sceptics. You can’t win!
I think the fact that the tumours were slow growing and early stage doesn’t undermine the findings at all, and it doesn’t matter that many in this group may survive their cancer anyway - it proves that all things being equal those on a vegan diet did better at this stage in their disease in all respects than those on the control diet. That is an astounding finding. It just doesn’t prove that diet can help in late stage cancer. But again, we will NEVER have that proof, because you can’t experiment on people with late stage cancer. So it’s pointless for people to say this is promising but lets wait for more research before acting on the evidence - you’re not going to get it, this is as good as it gets!
It is undeniable that none in the vegan group saw their cancer progress (PSA levels fell), but all in the control group saw their PSA levels rise and 6 had sufficient progression to require chemo or RT. This study is clearly shorter than one would like, and cannot say anything about what would happen after the one year of study. But the link in that year is CLEARLY ESTABLISHED - the serum from the vegan diet cohort had EIGHT TIMES the ability of the control group (70% vs 9%) to destroy cancer cells.
Mel I do understand your comment about your friends’ dad whose cancer didn’t progress for 9 years - so how do you know whether a diet works. But that is why you have control groups to compare against - when one groups does significantly better than the other and the only difference is diet, you have your answer. And a multiple of 8 is beyond significantly better - it’s incredible!
I Think I’ll leave it now too - thanks for the back and forth - I’ve enjoyed it.
Hi Finty,
I have realy enjoyed the debate too , so thanks to you and all the other ladies , ive certainly learned some things so thats always a good thing, you are right in that it is nigh impossible to get the proof that some of us would like, its so frustrating sometimes to know whether we are doing the right thing or not. i guess for me i tend to worry about and focus more on the enviromental chemical issues at the minute because so much of our stuff contains carcogenics these days.
Im taking part in Breakthroughs Generations Study,which i hope will eventualy give us some answers, this particular study involves over 100,000 women and is looking at Lifestyle/Enviroment/Hormonal/Genetics ect the study is unique in that it will continue to give information for the next 40yrs and beyond, though the first results on breast cancer causes they say will be ready much sooner than that, proberly in a few yrs time. So im hopeing we may start to get some answers to the causes of breast cancer from that.
Anyway, i want to wish everybody all the best on this thread whichever route they personaly take with this desease and thanks again for all the interesting links and information.
Linda x
finty - My comment about sugar was not directed just at refined sugar but fructose, etc, from the ‘loads of fruit’ that you say you are eating.
The other comment I wanted to make was about oestrogen in milk. It must be extremely low because I definitely have side effects of low/no oestrogen, having stopped HRT and now I am taking Letrozole, although I drink milk and do not actively seek foods containing phyto-oestrogens. I shall be interested to learn how you get on with Letrozole.
If/when I get a reply from DEFRA, I shall let you know.
Other than that, like we all say, the debate will go on and on. Good luck with whatever you choose to do. I do respect your views, as I am sure you respect those who do not necessarily share them.
Thanks Linda - you too. And I wholeheartedly agree about the chemicals - it bothers me enormously too. I’m only just starting down that road so have a lot to learn - I’ve made the start with toiletries, but I know there’s a lot more I should be doing.
Your study sounds interesting - I’ll check it out. My fear with these sorts of studies though is that they look at so many factors that it is hard to decipher what the results mean. I guess it’s much easier to look at a single variable - alcohol, exercise or whatever - something as complex as diet or exposure to chemicals would seem very hard to isolate as cause and effect.
Ann - regarding the sugar, I don’t think fruit in sugar is a problem, unless you were eating ridiculous amounts. Our bodies need some glucose and my understanding is that taking it in the form of fruit is the best possible way. Natural fruit gives you less of an insulin spike than fruit juice for instance, because of the fibre you are eating with it. To lower the insulin spike even further - you need to eat fruit with some fat and protein. I tend to eat more than half my fruit intake (the berries) with nuts - so that fits the bill perfectly - fibre, fat and protein. I also spread it throughout the day in small amounts, so I think it’s ok.
I guess the best evidence that it doesn’t give me an insulin spike is that I very rarely feel hungry - that feeling you get coming down from an insulin high. You would have to know me to realise how remarkable that is - I am very greedy! (Many, many, many years ago I was a serious sportswoman - and when I stopped training I unfortunately didn’t lose the appetite for the huge amount of calories you can consume when training intensively.) It has been amazing to me, and very unexpected, that a largely vegan diet can have this affect - and I think it is mainly due to cutting out virtually all refined sugars.
Regarding the oestrogen - I just don’t know what the effect of even small amounts of oestrogen in milk can have, and how much you have to consume to notice the effect. But absent some evidence, I have just decided to be cautious - if oestrogen is driving my cancer, I would rather not introduce any more, even if it’s a very low dose. I think all these things are very marginal anyway - unfortunately we just don’t know where the margin is!
The letrazole will be interesting - I am hoping that having already gone through the menopause, the se’s won’t be too severe - I don’t know if there is any logic to that, but I can hope! I made an interesting discovery the other day - that grape seeds act in the same way as letrazole as a powerful aromatase inhibitor - in rats! So maybe I’ll slip some of those into my unsweetened muesli too!
You could countact Breast Cancer Haven who will book you in to see one of their Nutritional therapists who specialise in breast cancer. the appointment is free and can be done on the phone if you don’t live close to one of their centres. breastcancerhaven.org.uk/help.php?parent=403
finty - Thank you for your list of foods you eat. Can I ask what you have as a substitute for butter on your bread, etc? Looking at all the other spreads available in the shops, they all seem to have chemicals or other undesirables in them, even the olive oil ones.
finty - I finally received a reply from defra. Well, actually, they passed it onto the Veterinary Medicines Directorate. They did also say that the oestrogen in milk was very low (around 2 picograms per millilitre) but thought that it would be destroyed by gastric acid. Not sure about this, since obviously HRT manages to get through. Maybe it is the fact that there is a large quantity of HRT and whilst some may be destroyed, enough gets through, but if the initial amount is very small, then it doesn’t. Who knows?
Re butter substitute - I don’t really use a spread. If I am making a sandwich I will use a non-dairy mayo or just houmous on it’s own, and on the rare occasions that I have toast I’ll have something like peanut butter that doesn’t need a spread (and oddly doesn’t contain butter!). I used to eat this way before, so it isn’t much of a problem for me.
Re the milk - it is very hard to know, and thanks for pursuing it. I am going to the Penny Brohn centre in October and you get a consultation with a cancer nutritionist so it will be one of many questions that I will be asking.
I’ve become more and more interested in the sugar issue - there was some more research out this week connecting sugar (specifically High Fructose Corn Syrup) to some cancers. I think sugar addiction is a serious issue anyway - my 15 year old son is an addict, specifically sweet drinks - and we have endless fights over trying to limit it. I’ve also started reading a very lengthy tome - the Diet Delusion - that is all about studying the evidence (original research) for diet theories, and comes to the conclusion that refined sugar and flour are the route of all health evils, much more so than dietary fat. It’s very interesting - and I am fairly sure that it is cutting out sugar that has made the difference to my appetite and the lack of cravings - I have never found it this easy to stick to a diet.
