Hi Ladies,
Thanks for the link finty, ive just managed to read through it , your right it was very long lol but i did read it,
Im a bit puzzled though, as i thought you were a critic of the EPIC study? so wondered why you would believe this particular piece from EPIC in the early yrs and not the latest findings on the study 10yrs on,
The latest findings on EPIC are they have found no dietry link with all the very different dietry intakes including about 30,000 vegetarians. They infact concluded for the two most common cancers – breast cancer in women and prostate cancer in men – there are no strong dietary links.
It’s not that I don’t believe the EPIC study - I’m sure it is a very well run piece of research, but it is limited because it is a population study, not research into a specific diet. The comment I made earlier is that I don’t think it is of any use in evaluating a highly specialised diet, because such a diet doesn’t exist in the population being studied. So it can’t come to any useful conclusions about the diet I am talking about. It can only make very broad brush conclusions, as I believe it has done in the case of red meat.
Hi Finty,
I thought the research was interesting reading, but it would seem now that 10 yrs on in the study that whatever the differences that were found between IGF levels in all the different dietry intakes it hasnt realy made much difference anyway, so hasnt been able to conclude that by following any particular diet is any more benefical than a normal diet for breast cancer occurence/prevention.
Well, three points: Firstly, did you find some specific outcomes for the vegan group to know that it made no difference after 10 years - because I haven’t been able to? The vegan group was tiny, so unless their outcomes have been given separately the group is way too small to influence the headline numbers. I think the figures were something like 250 people out of 500,000 - so about 0.05% of the overall total. I know the summary I have read talks about vegetarians, but haven’t seen anything specifically about vegans. Do you have a link? Thanks.
Secondly, as this was a population study and not a specific piece of research on diet where each member of the cohort was strictly evaluated to eliminate other risk factors, it is hard to know what other factors may influence the outcome of such a small group. Again, it is hard to get this sort of information - I have looked everywhere for the EPIC questionnaire but haven’t been able to find it. If anyone has a link I’d love to read it.
Thirdly, I wouldn’t expect to see huge differences - diet is one of many influences. But it is one of the few we can do something about. After all, many people go through chemo for a benefit in the small single figures. And as I said before, a vegan diet comes closest to the diet many of us follow, but isn’t the same. It would be possible to be a vegan and eat none of the food recommended on a cancer fighting diet.
Have just had a quick read of this of this indepth research - fascinating.
I’m not sure now what to think regarding soya milk and other soya.
Quote from text:
“However, vegan women who consumed ¾ pint or more of soya milk/day had a significant 28% higher IGF-I concentration than vegan women who did not drink soya milk.”
I have substituted soya milk for cow’s milk and do drink about a pint a day. I do also use some soya spread for cooking although not that much.
I want to go back to the Plant programme as I think one of her theories is that it is the IGF-1 in milk that she thinks is problematic.
Okay it’s not science although it refers to research but might be of interest. Keep watching right to the end though. It’s about IGF-1 in milk and soya
I was worried about that comment about soya too - it’s so frustrating to have incomplete information though. I guess I drink about 1/3 of a pint - but is the implication that its a straight line graph of raised IGF, or you have to drink 3/4 of a pint to raise levels. Who knows?
Also, the percentage figure is interesting - the figure is 28% higher than vegan women, but did you get the impression that the absolute figure is still below that of vegetarians and meat eaters? I need to do some maths and see if that is possible!
The IGF issue is indeed the main plank of the Plant programme - the more I read about it the more I think she is on to something. I’m just going to make myself a cup of green tea and watch your video link.
I’m off the builder’s tea and soya milk and back on the green tea.
Good question you raise there. I’m not at all sure that is the case for the 28%. I need to read through more thoroughly. I’ll think I’ll print it off and do that over the weekend.
I’ve e-mailed Jane Plant (she has contact details on her website) and raised this issue with her. I’ll be very interested to see if she responds. I can’t find any reference to IGF-1 in relation to soya products in her book.
Very interesting video - I must admit to being very surprised about the soya results. I’ve no reason to doubt it though. I will switch to oat or rice milk, but I wonder if they contian it too - I can see I have a lot more reading to do!
I know I was very surprised too particularly as it is a vegetable protein. I’m not enamoured with rice and oat milk as I find them watery. There was also a scare about rice milk and arsenic and other pesticide contamination. Don’t know the outcome of that or whether organic rice milk was okay. You can get nut milk too but I don’t think it’s organic and it’s got a very sweet and odd flavour.
I’m going to miss my cuppa!
As I only use it for cereal I might try coconut milk - or even juice. Might be a bit weird to start with, but seems we adjust quite quickly - I never thought as a coffee addict I would find myself drinking green tea, and yet here I am.
Don’t know if you saw River Cottage last night but he said that the Swiss don’t have muesli with milk. He used orange juice and grated apple and mixed the muesli in. I had a friend who always used orange juice with cornflakes.
I have a problem with acid reflux so that’s out for me but I love coconut milk and think that perhaps watered down that would work really well. Haven’t seen the juice anywhere but that might be even better.
I have used fruit juice rather than milk on my muesli for years. Nothing to do with breast cancer, I just prefer the taste. My current favourite is orange and banana.
Ooooh I like the sound of that Eliza - banana would give a nice sweetness. I’m clearly going to have to start getting up a little earlier now - by the time I’ve ground my linseeds and made juice, the whole process is getting quite lengthy!
finty x
I’m thinking banana blitzed with a bit of water rather than juice would also be good for cereal.
Finty - I’ve already heard back from Jane Plant! I’m impressed. I’ve asked if she’s happy for me to post her reply but if not whether I can forward on to you. I’m going to relook at the data particularly the issue you raise which is pertinent to her reply. Would you have the chance to relook at it too over the weekend? Then we can post up for others what conclusions we draw perhaps and of course anyone else who would be happy to do this.
Yes of course Elinda - would be delighted to. I’m amazed you heard back so quickly - that is impressive. I had wondered about having a consultation with her at some stage. I’ll PM my email address to you.
I’m not sure that Jane Plant’s response is saying anything that we wouldn’t have worked out by examining the article further. I do appreciate the speedy response though.
I think that the IGF-1 is important but it still leaves me uncertain about soya especially when already having other protein in the diet such as eggs, fish and meat. The question is whether soya has other protective qualities.
Also whether milk has other concerns such as prolactin as suggested in the Plant Programme. That’s a real worry for me as I take domperidone before meals and that raises prolactin secretion.
Finty - on Hugh Fearly Wittingstall prog last night he was making breakfasts - one was home made meusli with lots of lovely additions to oats then orange juice I think instead of milk , he was questioning why we always put milk on cereals - Swiss dont. It did look delicious. Kirsty