Thanks Linda that is helpful. As I suspected, they don’t seem to have included any outcomes for the vegan group, only vegetarians.
Hi Finty ,
Glad you found the links to be helpfull, the trouble is there are no studies also to prove that a vegan diet is better than a normal healthy diet either,so isnt it all a bit of a shot in the dark and keeping fingers crossed ??? its something i think that is impossible to ever establish ,just too many varables, and thats even without even considering other aspects like cooking tempetures /where/how the food is sourced/grown ect apart from other aspects of ones life weight/smoking/drinking/exercise ect .I think the EPIC study has proved however that for meat/Dairy/eggs ect there is no strong link with Breast cancer if you continue to eat these things.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19491385
linda
Hi Linda
That isn’t true - you know there IS a study that shows a vegan diet is better than a normal diet for cancer patients - you know because we have argued it to death. The prostate study is the only one I have found that followed people for two years on a vegan diet - and without question they did significantly better than those on a normal diet. I know you don’t accept those results, but plenty of people do including me, and especially the experts working in the field of cancer and diet, whose views I value, accept it. Although I have read critiques of the study speculating what might happen to those patients later on, which are perfectly valid, I have found no peer review that questions the underlying science of the research or finds the conclusions unsupported by the evidence.
The EPIC study has found that there is little difference between a vegetarian diet and a meat eating diet (there was a small difference, but not marked). That is what I would expect to find, as of course a vegetarian diet usually includes a lot of dairy and sometimes soya. But that is a long way from saying that they have proved that meat/diary/eggs have no strong link with breast cancer. Quite the reverse - they explicitly pointed to the elevated rates of IGF1 in meat, dairy and soya consumers compared to vegans, and explicitly made the connection between IGF 1 and cancer. They are not the only ones - this is a very hot issue in cancer research as a quick google search on IGF and cancer will show. The only thing they haven’t done is provide any long term outcomes for the vegan group - I imagine that is because the group was so small that any results would be hard to analyse with any confidence.
I don’t really accept your characterisation that it’s a shot in the dark and keeping fingers crossed - if there were only one or two studies making a connection, maybe I would agree. But there are hundreds, probably thousands actually, of studies that analyse different foodstuffs and their effect on cancer cells in vitro, in animals, and in vivo. What is very difficult is to combine them to find the optimum diet because it is so very complicated, but I think the evidence that diet can have an effect is absolutely overwhelming, the only doubt is in the details of precisely what that diet should be. But I don’t think there is anyone working in the field of cancer and diet research that says a typical western diet is optimal.
finty
Hi Finty
As you know the IGF1 levels made little difference in the long term study of the diet (10 yrs on)and also unfortuneately the prostrate study is by no means evidence that a vegan diet is better in preventing or halting prostrate cancer in the long term , as you know it was a very small study and we would need much larger studies and a much longer followup to ever conclude that a vegan diet was any more beneficial than any other diet in cancer fighting/prevention, and yes, there are critics of this diet.
If the prostrate study was seen to be so remarkable in its findings, i would ask “why are there not now many more larger studies being conducted on this particular diet??” there are still many, many people dying of prostrate cancer today, but… my oncologist fortuneately specialises in prostrate cancer also so i will certainly ask him his views on that particular study when i see him next.
Certainly the fact is at present , that most of the scientific studies available to date still continue to find no link with diet and BC along with the EPIC study, and whether we like it or not the EPIC study does say that meat/dairy/eggs has no strong link with either prostrate or breast cancer,
I think we shall just have to disagree on the diet theory issue and breast cancer as in the end of course it all comes down to how different people interpret the findings , but i do wish you well with your particular diet changes and hope they will be of benefit and work for you and anyone else who decides on an alternative diet.
Linda
Linda - I wish you very well too. But I would like you, if you have the time, to show me where it says the lower IGF levels of the vegan group made little difference in the long term - I can’t find that reference. If you can find one, I will happily agree with you. In the links you provided earlier there was no mention of the long term results from the vegan group at all - it only mentions the vegetarians. The vegetarians of course had elevated IGF levels from consumption of dairy and perhaps soya, so I would not expect to see lower cancer rates in a meat eating or vegetarian group - only a vegan group. So I don’t see how the EPIC study can be characterised as failing to find a link - in fact it specifically pointed out the link with cancer, IGF and a meat and dairy eating diet.
I do totally agree the prostate study cannot say anything about what will happen to those men in the future - no research ever does, but that would be a criticism of all research, including the EPIC study. I’m not sure how that invalidates what it actually found - that for the period under study - 2 years - the vegan group did significantly better than the normal diet group. I think the answer to why more larger studies are not under way is probably quite simple. My guess would be that it is very difficult to recruit a large cohort of people with active cancer who are willing to forgo treatment but undertake very rigorous lifestyle changes. But, we actually don’t know if that is happening or not - such research may be under way but it may be years before we hear about it. After all the original project was only completed recently, and it takes years to recruit and set up a follow-up study, then years to wait for the study to conclude, then publish the results. The Dean Ornish project itself is continuing, so there will be further results from it. I would be very interested in your oncologist’s views on this research - I know many prostate cancer suffers are given specific diet advice. Maybe you could ask him if he is aware of this particular study? Many thanks.
finty
I’ve had a good read through of the IGF-1 study in women meat-eaters, vegetarians and vegans by Naomi Allen et al (previously posted in this thread). This is how I see it their findings.
Studies have shown that elevated levels of IGF-1 are associated with increased risk of breast cancer in premenopausal women.
Best diet for low IGF-1 levels would be a vegan one without soya. They are theorising that this may primarily be due to low essential amino acids. This diet also appears to lead to an increase in binding proteins that may prevent the bioavailability of IGF-1.
Vegans had a 13% low mean serum IGF-1 than both meat eaters and vegetarians.
The binding protein of IGFBP-2 was 41% higher in vegans than meat eaters and 20% higher than vegetarians.
Soya milk significantly raised IGF-1 levels in vegans.
Predominantly plant based diets may be linked to lower rates of cancer due its effect on IGF-1. Supported by diets of Asian countries.
Researchers state that there is not the data collected to know what rates of breast cancer are like amongst vegan women and whether their risk is lower.
Additional thoughts on the above are that:
From this study we don’t know what overall dairy intake/egg/or meat intake was. If as the study suggests that increased amounts of milk are not raising IGF-1 levels (different from other findings) then something must be causing the 20% difference in vegans and vegetarians IGF-1 levels. This could be partly due to eggs and/or other dairy produce.
There is no distinction between eating fish or meat and then red meat as opposed to white meat etc.
It is possible as Jane Plant suggests that soya does have other protective qualities. I need a bit more convincing now.
I am aiming to reduce my IGF-1 by reducing the amount of meat i eat, cutting right down on soya and I’ve already eliminated dairy. In addition I’m going to increase vegetables and have two vegan meals per week.
Elinda
Thanks Elinda - a very fair summation.
finty x
Elinda - more strong evidence that IGF causes breast cancer:
info.cancerresearchuk.org/news/archive/pressrelease/2010-05-17-hormone-breast-cancer-risk
This is an interesting study and specifically links IGF to oestrogen positive breast cancer. So we now know two things: IGF is a significant cause of hormone positive breast cancer, and we can lower our IGF levels dramatically by avoiding meat, dairy and soya milk. IGF is also a factor in prostate cancer, so could help to explain why the men on a vegan diet in the study did better than the non vegans, as their IGF levels would have dropped and their IGF receptor levels risen.
finty x
There definitely seems to be something to all this. How much genetics plays a role is an unknown but it makes sense to do what we can to reduce circulating IGF-1 through diet. Problem is I don’t think I can go vegan. I have tried before but my stomach can’t take too many pulses. I suppose anything to reduce levels though is good such as reducing meat, soya and dairy and upping our veg intake.
I know Elinda, fully vegan is hard. I’ve spent quite a lot of time this weekend trying to find specific IGF1 levels for fish, eggs and chicken. Not much luck yet - but I think it is quite likely they will turn out to be acceptably low, particularly if sourced carefully, organic etc. I’ll let you know if I find anything useful. In any case IGF does occur naturally in the body, and is required for cell repair - so we don’t need to eliminate it - just prevent inflated levels. Interestingly we all seem to eat way too much protein anyway, I keep coming across figures that suggest we only need about 30 - 40 grams a day, unless you are an athlete. One useful way of finding out how to lower IGF is to read body building websites, and then do the exact opposite of what they recommend! The recommendation for lowering IGF as a cancer preventative measure is limiting protein and fat each to 10% of daily calorie intake. In a western diet, the average is more like 30 - 40%.
I have found quite a few references to soya and IGF though - the general theme of which is that in absolute terms the IGF levels in soya are lower than red meat and dairy, but because it is highly bio-available, it creates relatively highs serum levels after consumption. Makes sense really, plant foods are generally much more easily digested than animal products.
Anyway, I’m to to Penny Brohn in a couple hours. I will be seeing an expert in cancer nutrition and a doctor - so will definitely be asking them about all this. Will report back when I return on Friday.
finty xx
thanks Finty, would be good to know what Penny Brohn have to say. I did wonder about body building as I remember asking what soya lecithin granules were used for in a health food shop and told using body building.
Interesting what you say about soya and raising IGF. I suppose the question is whether eating soya means a quick release peaking the levels of IGF as opposed to meat/dairy that take longer to digest but still release more.
Hi
The amount of steroid hormone that is eaten through meat of a treated or untreated animal is negligible compared to what the human body produces each day.
FDA scientists have concluded that IGF-1 in milk is very unlikely to present any human food safety concern for the following reasons: 1) IGF-1 levels in cow’s milk from untreated animals vary in nature, depending on the number of calves and the lactation stage; 2) IGF-1 is also present in human breast milk, at levels much higher than in hormone-treated cow’s milk;
3) IGF-1 in milk is not expected to act as a growth factor in people who drink it because it gets digested in the stomach;
4) IGF-1 needs to be injected into the blood to have a growth-promoting effect;
and 5) increased IGF-1 levels in food are not expected to result in higher blood levels of IGF-1 in humans who eat these food.
While currently available evidence does not indicate a link between eating meat, milk or dairy products from hormone-treated animals and any health effects, adopting some known healthy diet habits (see below) can help reduce exposure to hormones used in meat, poultry and dairy production.
* Eat a varied diet, rich in fruits, grains and vegetables.
* Eat meats in moderation, well cooked, but not charred.
* Eat more lean muscle meat, less liver and fat.
People who may be considering a vegan diet should be awear that a vegan diet lack a number of essential nutrients, so care should always be taken.
Vitamin B12 Deficiency: Vitamin B12 is not regularly found in plant food. Vitamin B12 deficiency has many major health problems, like anemia, neuro-degenerative disorders
Calcium Deficiency: Studies have shown that vegans are more at risk of fractured bones than their meat eating, non-vegetarian counterparts. A vegan diet is very low in calcium
Vitamin D Deficiency: Vegan diet is also low in Vitamin D. It maintains bone density, helps in healthy bone growth and also in maintaining normal functioning of the nervous system. Lack of Vitamin D hampers calcium and phosphorus absorption in the body. Hence, there are rising cases of osteoporosis amongst followers of vegan diets. At the same time lack of Vitamin D can also increase the risk of breast and prostate cancer.
Deficiency of Iodine: In many countries around the world, animal products are used to manufacture iodine. Therefore, vegans shun iodine. However, iodine deficiency causes goiter and hypothyroidism. Soy products are emphasized in vegan diets, but a lot of soy products also leads to deficiency of iodine
Omega 3 Fatty Acids: A commonly seen deficiency in vegans is omega 3 essential fatty acids. This acid is important for brain functions, behavioral functions as well as normal growth and development. Omega 3 fatty acid is essential to prevent diseases like heart disease, arthritis and cancer
Iron Deficiency: Anemia and iron deficiency rates are higher in people who follow veganism. This is because iron from plants is not absorbed in the body as well as the iron from meat. Iron absorption is inhibited due to the fiber, phytates, and oxalates present in a vegan diet.
Linda
Hi All, An interesting and heated thread and I am enjoying all the evidence that has been discussed. It really is a mine field so it’s no wonder the medical professionals don’t give out too much advice!!
Myself, I follow Chris Woolhams advice in the Rainbow diet, which is all about plenty of a variety of organic fruit and veg,some organic meat, poultry and deep sea oily fish, no dairy,wheat or proceesed foods,occasional alcohol. But I do also read regularly current research on different foods and continually modify my diet accordingly.
I think it is very important to try and balance all research as we know that any statistics can be manipulated to suit a particular argument!!
This is why food is such a complicated area to get any clear ideas on what we should be eating. There is so much information that we can access now on the internet and who do we believe??
best wishes
Leadie
Hi Elinda
The Penny Brohn advice was very interesting - and you’ll be pleased to hear is pretty close to the diet we’ve been discussing. Just very briefly:
Very big stress on everything organic if at all possible, if not, local produce is preferred over anything that has travelled a long way - as produce loses nutrients from the moment it is picked. Often local farm produce can be good even of not fully organic. Avoid non-organic watery produce - cucumbers, celery, salad, especially salad in bags, as it is very highly treated.
Avoid processed food as much as possible.
Lots of variety of veg, fruit, beans and pulses. Veg and fruit to make up at least half of your diet - 5 a day is woefully inadequate - and beans and pulses a quarter.
Eat some wholegrain cereals but not too much wheat unless it is spelt, quinoa is particularly good as a protein source. Lots of fresh nuts and seeds (but not peanuts), and then only very small amounts of animal protein. Eggs are great, and small oily fish are preferred, avoid tuna and swordfish. Organic salmon is ok, avoid line caught fish. They don’t say “never” to any food, but advise avoiding red meat, but if you do eat some lamb is better than pork and beef. Organic chicken is fine, preferably grass fed. Avoid all dairy except organic butter in preference to vegetable spreads, but they also recommend nut butters (almond etc).
Some soya is ok, but just the traditional fermented types (tempeh, tofu, miso), all organic and non-GM.
For cooking they recommend coconut oil, and olive oil for salads.
In terms of cooking styles, slow and low temperatures are good. If you are not eating food straight away, freeze it to stop nutrients deteriorating.
Leadie - I think this is pretty similar to Chris Woolhams diet advice. It was really good to hear it all from a qualified nutritionist with an emphasis on cancer prevention and treatment, I saw two, actually. They also gave advice on supplements, but that was for each individual.
Hope this helps.
finty x
Hi Linda
I think points 1 - 4 are contradicted by the EPIC vegan research, which showed a strong correlation between dietary IGF intake and blood serum levels.
finty
Hi Finty, I also read up dietry advice from the penny brohn centre and it is much the same as Chris Woolhams, I took the Penny Brohn advice on supplements too.
Best wishes
Leadie
Hi Finty,
I am wondering why the advice is to avoid line caught fish and Tuna? I thought I was okay buying line caught fish and eating tuna!! Other than organic salmon which I do buy was there any advice about farmed fish which I have been avoiding?
Did they mention if quorn products are ok?
Sorry for all the questions - I think I will see if I can go on one of the Penny Brohn 3 days courses!
Wendy
Hi Wendy
They didn’t go into a lot of detail about line caught, but they said it was because we can have no idea what those fish have been in contact with. So I guess by organic salmon they mean farmed organic rather than wild salmon. Fresh tuna is to be avoided because it is a huge fish that is at the top of the food chain so collects lots of toxins, especially mercury - although I think they said tinned was ok, which seems odd. I will email them and ask - they have a very good follow-up service.
I think quorn is not recommended as it isn’t a traditional fermented soya - tofu is ok though. I would highly recommend the 3 day course - diet was just a small part of it, I got loads out of it - it’s a wonderful place.
finty x
Thanks Finty,
Thought wild salmon was okay too! Guess I need to go on the course! Think I’ll give them a call on Monday
Wendy
x
Hi finty,
Pleased that you enjoyed your stay at penny brohns, i know a few ladies that have been to penny brohns in the past from BCC and have realy enjoyed their time there and found it very interesting too.
You said in your post that penny brohn advises avoiding Red Meat and also to Avoid all Dairy except organic butter? , that surprised me a bit,because when i was reading thier website the other day on Nutrition and diet it doesnt actually say that on there, so am a bit confused , ive put a couple of the links from penny brohns on what seems to be their recommended diet and their take on Dairy, well from there website anyway.
Wonder why you were told different, perhaps each person is assessed individualy? realy not sure but its confusing isnt it.
pennybrohncancercare.org/upload/docs/932/pb_eating__downloadable_072010.pdf
pennybrohncancercare.org/upload/docs/932/dairy_foods_2010.pdf
Nice to see you back anyway
Linda x