Delayed diagnosis Query

Hi there,

I have a wee question I thought I might ask here.

To give you a bit of background, I found a lump in my breast back in February 2006. When it was still there in May, I decided to go to the GP in my university (I was a student at the time and 26yrs old). She told me to wait three months. I said I already had waited three months. She referred me to a breast clinic. I got an appointment in June where I saw a “surgical lecturer to the Professor of Surgery” not a doctor (well, she was Ms. not a Dr. anyway?) She organised for me to have an ultrasound.

I got my appointment for the ultrasound in August where I was told that the lump was probably a fibroadenoma. I might add that at each appointment, it was stressed to me that this lump was nothing as I had no past medical history, no BC risk factors such as family history etc and the lump had not increased in size.

Fast forward to March of this year, I once again attended a GP. I now had bloody discharge from my nipple and the lump was still present. She referred me to breast clinic again (a differnet one from the first) and guess what I had breast cancer. Had a mastectomy, node clearance (20/23 positive), chemo, and now in the middle of rads, zoladex and tamoxifen.

The problem is, I am having a hard time getting any straight answers from my medical team about my delayed diagnosis. One told me that the lump I had all along was the site of the invasive ductal carcinoma whereas another told me it was hard to know if it was. Then another time, I was told that the lump had probably turned malignant just a few months before I was diagnosed in March.

What I would like to ask if you don’t mind, is if it is possible to have a benign lump turn cancerous?

So far with the surgery and chemo, I was too tired to pursue it any further but now I wish to look in to it properly. I believe that I was entitled to, but didn’t get, a triple assessment and that I should have had a follow-up check-up after the ultrasound back in August '06.

I have requested my medical records from the GP and hospital I attended back in '06. The GP sent me back the correspondence she had with the breast clinic which was just a letter saying they were sending me for ultrasound. She has no record of any ultrasound. I am still awaiting the breast clinic/hospital records.

I’m really puzzled. Thank you so much for reading.

All the best,
Teacup xx

hi Teacup

I don’t think the real question is whether a benign lump can turn cancerous or not, the question is why they did not rule out cancer to begin with. From what you say, they did not KNOW what the lump was, they guessed.

Oh, and the Ms you saw could well have been a doctor, well, a surgeon - for some strange reason surgeons do not use the title Doctor but revert to Mister, Miss or Missus (i think it goes back to the days when the barber did the surgery)

I would pursue this though

hugs

x x

Dear Teacup,

I’ve just had a message from JaneRA alerting me to your message. I’m so sorry to hear all this. You may have seen my messages further down on the list of threads. I did have a delay in diagnosis, both in terms of a delay being referred to a breast clinic in the first place and then a delay in diagnosis due to the failure of the medic I saw to carry out a Triple Assessment. ( Instead he told me that I had two fibroadenomas - a relatively common condition in younger women.) I’ll try and answer some of your questions.

There is no doubt that if you went to a breast clinic with a palpable lump, whatever your age or family history of BC, you should have received all three parts of the Triple Assessment.

A benign lump (including a fibroadenoma) does not turn into a cancerous lump. In a sense this is a red herring - the main role of that first contact with a breast clinic is to rule out the possibility that a lump might be cancerous.

The medic you saw was probably a breast surgeon and should have been a consultant. Surgeons are qualified doctors but are traditionally referred to as Mr, Mrs or Ms.

I suggest that you ring your Trust up and ask who you should write to for copies of your medical records. Your Trust may ask for a small fee (I had to pay £15) for administration and photocopying. Once the written request and payment have been made the Trust has to send copies to you within 40 days.

You may also like to download the guidelines which indicate best clinical practice. If you live in England & Wales then the guidelines you need to look at are the NICE Guidelines. These can be found at: nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=csgbcguidance. If you live in Scotland you need to look at the SIGN Guidelines at: sign.ac.uk/pdf/sign84.pdf.

Please be aware that these guidelines are not some ‘gold standard’ to be strived towards but indicate evidence-based best clinical practice that all breast clinics must carry out. These guidelines are not only medically but legally robust and have been the basis of successful medical negligence cases. Any divergence from these guidelines for any reason should be clearly written in your medical records.

There is so much I could say on this subject and I would like to reply more fully to your message. However, I’m just about to go away for the next couple of days with work. I will send you a more detailed message at the beginning of next week.

In the meantime, modern treatment is very good so please don’t panic.

With very best wishes,

Sue

Hi Teacup

Sorry you are going through all this.

I am glad to see Sue has contacted you as she was my first thought on someone with expert knowledge, I’ve read her threads.

I haven’t anything to add other I wish every success with your treatment and back you in your pursuit to get answers to the delay, it should happen these days.

Good Luck
Carol

Hi Quisie, Sue and Carol,

Thank you so much for all of your comments.

Quisie you’re right, they should not have ruled out cancer without proper assessment. Even when they did finally carry out triple assessment in March of this year they did not biopsy the lump but another part of my breast. This biopsy showed that I had pre-cancerous tissue in that part of the breast. I don’t know why they did not biopsy the lump. When I asked my BCN this question, she said that they probably thought the lump had been checked already in the first breast clinic. I pointed out that they had not carried out a proper assessment in the first clinic??

Thank you so much Sue for the lengthy and informative comment. I have read your other thread with much interest and I am really sorry to hear what you had to go through. Thanks so much to you and Quisie for clearing up the matter of the “Ms” not “Dr” surgeon and passing on the links to the guidlines.

With your tips in mind, I have also made appointments to meet my GP and BCN to discuss and request my present medical records. I have a good relationship with my GP and BCN. However, while I can not fault my medical team in their treatment since diagnosis. I do feel that whenever I ask questions they do go on the defensive. I have an appointment with my consultant in a couple of weeks and I will be armed with a lot of questions.

There is so much more I could say to you on the matter but I still find it quite overwhelming. Looking forward to chatting to you again.

Thank Carol for the words of encouragement. My treatment, I have to say, has gone very well. My oncologist ensured that I got the most aggressive chemo drugs (taxol and AC). I was still able to work p/t and radiotherapy so far has been absolutely fine. How far are you in your treatment?

Also, thank you to JaneRA for alerting Sue to my post.

Best wishes,
Teacup

Hi Teacup,

I’m back at home after being away with work.

As I was saying, it is worth getting the NICE (or SIGN) guidelines and also getting copies of your medical notes (from both the GP surgery and the breast clinic/hospital). Also ask for copies of the ultrasound scan and/or report and any other tests that you have had.

If you are going to discuss your delay in diagnosis with the medics please be aware that if a mistake has been made they are going to want to smooth it over. All doctors make mistakes at some moment in their career and there is a great fear of being sued. This means that there is a tendency for medics to stick together. Representatives of the NHS Trust won’t necessarily want to be open either; again there is a fear of being sued.

You need to be sure about what you want. Ideally you would want to find out that a mistake hasn’t been made and that the breast cancer has been caught at the earliest stage possible. How would you feel if you find out that there has in fact been a delay in diagnosis which could have been prevented? Could you cope with this in the middle of treatment? Do you want to start asking questions now or would you prefer to wait until after treatment?

In my own situation I wanted the truth, no matter how unpalatable. I also wanted to prevent the same thing happening to anyone else. If this is how you feel then it is worth pursuing. But you do need support.

If you decide to go ahead you need to decide who you want to talk to about your concerns. You could have a meeting with the consultant. If you want to be taken seriously then I suggest that you consider writing to the Trust for a meeting with the consultant and the chief executive of the NHS Trust (In my case my first meeting was with the consultant in charge of the breast clinic and the chief executive of Forth Valley NHS Board; my second meeting was with the chief executive of Forth Valley NHS Board, the chief executive of Forth Valley Acute Trust and the chief executive of Forth Valley Primary Care Trust.)

Before you have any meetings I suggest that you write down all that has happened to you - GP and Breast Clinic appointment dates and times, medics you saw, details of all conversations, dates and times of any tests you had. In short, everything. This means that you know what you know. Should anyone quibble about what happened at a particular appointment you have your version to refer to in black and white.

Be aware that several arguments may be used which are designed to put people off finding out about delays.

‘The triple assessment is a gold standard to be aspired to’. This is rubbish. No, it is evidence-based best clinical practice that breast clinics are required to follow.

‘Guidelines are only guidelines and it is up to the doctor to make a clinical judgement’. This is misleading. The guidelines are clinically and legally robust and have been cited in successful medical negligence cases. It is true that there are reasons why someone might not use the Triple Assessment. One example might be if a patient had had a lump previously investigated using all three parts of the Triple Assessment and found to be benign but was morbidly afraid of cancer and so returned time and time again to a breast clinic to demand more and more biopsies. In such a situation a doctor might feel that it was in the patient’s best interests to refuse the triple assessment. A second example might be if there was an underlying medical condition which might prevent one part of the triple assessment. For instance mammography wouldn’t be carried out on a pregnant woman and it may be that a core biopsy would be carried out on a patient with haemophila. A third example might be if a miraculously improved new investigative technique was suddenly available. Doctors wouldn’t stick rigidly to guidelines; they would use the new better test for breast cancer immediately.

‘Forget about the past and concentrate on the future and staying well’. This is patronising at best. Be aware that people who have a delay in diagnosis often have to deal with that delay before they start dealing with the diagnosis itself. This means that your decision to ask questions about a possible delay in diagnosis is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

If you do decide to have a meeting write down all the questions you want to ask and whatever you do don’t go to the meeting alone. Take at least one other person with you. When I had my meeting with the consultant and the chief executive of the NHS board I took my husband and a family friend. My husband listened to what was said and asked some of the questions and the family friend took notes. This was very wise because it was all very upsetting and I needed to be clear on what had been said. Also what ever you do don’t mention the possibility of legal action, even jokingly. If you do no one will have a meeting with you.

I hope that this is helpful.

With very best wishes,

Sue

Hi Sue,

Thank you for your lengthy message. It is very kind of you to supply me with all your knowledge and experience and such a help to me.

I wonder could I perhaps PM you sometime?

Thanks,

Teacup

Teacup,

If/when you take this further and have meetings - please do use your written notes. Don’t let them pressurise you into speaking from memory, that way they could possibly trip you up by showing an inconsistency. As Jane says, take someone with you and make sure notes are taken.

It will be upsetting for you, anything like this is. Listen to Sue, she’s been through this.

Thinking of you and wishing you peace throughout it all and strength to cope

hugs

Ruth

x x x x

Thanks for the tip Ruth, and the encouragement. So good of you to do so.

I wish I had started keeping notes ages ago, so difficult to remember details esp with the chemo brain, ha!

Hugs too

Teacup xx

Hi Teacup,

I’d be glad to help and give advice.

By the way, what does PM mean?

Best wishes,

Sue

PM means private message

Thanks Molennium, so not prime minister, pre-menstrual, post meridiem, post-menopausal, post mortem, postmaster, provost marshall or - wait for it - the chemical element promethium, but Private Message. I feel a bit silly now.

Sorry teacup for being particularly dense. I am happy to converse by private message. I don’t think I’ve had a private mesage since the website was revamped so I’m not sure how it will work. If I don’t seem to have spotted your message then stick a message on the thread saying SUE LOOK AT YOUR PRIVATE MESSAGE FOR GOODNESS SAKE and I’ll make sure that I find it.

With best wishes,

Sue

Hi Sue,

Thanks. I might have some questions for you in the future. Gonna enjoy xmas for now and think things futher in January.

Wishing you a merry christmas and pleasant new year.

O and sorry for the ambiguous PM abbreviation.

Take care,

Teacup xx

Hi Teacup,

Very wise. Have a really good time.

With very best wishes,

Sue

Hi Sue,

Have been reading some of your very witty comments on other threads. I especially liked the one about sub-saharan Africa!

Well, I am still waiting to get my medical records from my current breast clinic. I received my records from the first clinic before Christmas, along with a cd of the u/s scan. I had a routine apt with my consultant before xmas, I was hoping to get to the bottom of a few questions, but it was one of his registrars (is that what you call them?) who saw me and he didn’t know my case at all and even said that maybe I had imagined that lump that had been there all along! I came out really frustrated. I have an apt with my onc week after next so I’m hoping to get some answers then. I know you probably think I am moving very slowly with this but half the time I feel it was my own fault that this all happened which doesn’t exactly give you the conviction to go in with all guns blazing plus my BCN and GP have suggested I just get on with life.

Best wishes,
Teacup

Dear Teacup,

Some thoughts on what you’ve said in the light of my own experience.

There is a tendency for the medics to protect each other. This is probably not because there is a direct conspiracy against a patient or because they don’t care about patients but because all doctors make mistakes, good ones as well as bad. This means that when something comes to light doctors think: “this could be me” and “will the patient sue?”.

To be fair, doctors can’t really comment on other doctor’s work so I wouldn’t expect to get any information from the registrar. However, the comment about you imagining a lump is unacceptable. In fact it highlights some of the issues involved in delays in diagnosis - breast clinic staff are used to seeing women who don’t have breast cancer and so they make assumptions when younger women turn up with a genuine lump and don’t respect or believe them. If you see this man again and he says the same thing just ask him if he imagines lumps and when he says “no” then say “neither do I.”

In my situation I didn’t ask questions of the medical staff at all; I wrote directly to the Chief Executive of the Health Board asking why I hadn’t received the Triple Assessment. Even so, various medics did try to smooth things over. One of the radiographers started talking to me about guidelines only being guidelines but I simply said that the guidelines were best clinical practice and if there was a good and logical reason why they hadn’t been followed then someone should be able to tell me exactly what that reason was, and no one seemed to be able to do so. At a meeting one of the other Chief Executives suggested to me that diagnosis was an art form and implied that the personal judgement of a doctor was some sort of mystery. I said that diagnosis was not an art but a science and that personal judgement was not an alternative to science at all but had an important role to play when all the scientific avenues were exhausted. In my case the scientific options - the Triple Assessment - hadn’t been exhaused. I also said that diagnosis was not only about finding about what something was but eliminating what it wasn’t. In my case a life-threatening disease hadn’t been ruled out of the equation and I wanted to know why. (I think I may have also mentioned that it was no coincidence that the Sherlock Holmes books with their emphasis on logical deduction were written by a doctor.) At this point the CE changed the subject.

A couple of people (BCN & GP coincidently) did say " forget what has happened and get on with life". This, however, simply showed a lack of insight into the issues surrounding delays in diagnosis. I needed to deal with the delay in diagnosis of breast canccr before I could deal with the diagnosis itself and so I had to ask all the questions and find out what had happened. Other people who have had delays in diagnosis have felt exactly the same way. In fact what we are all looking for is an explanation, an apology and procedures put into place to stop it happening again.

If you are going to ask your oncologist questions then my advice would be:

  1. Please, please, please take someone with you (for support, to act as a witness to what is said and, if the oncologist agrees, to take notes);
  2. Write down your questions beforehand;
  3. If the answer to a question is unclear then don’t be frightened of asking further questions;
  4. If, in the end you are not satisfied with the answers given then write straight to the Chief Executive.

And, by the way, don’t let anyone bully you into thinking that breast cancer is somehow your fault; it isn’t. Don’t let anyone make you feel that you are using up their valuable time; their time is paid for by taxpayers and they seem to have had a cavalier attitude to your time. Don’t feel guilty about asking questions; you have every right to ask these questions.

Searching for the truth is the right thing to do even if it makes the medics uncomfortable and truthful answers to these questions will help them to learn from their mistakes and help you to move on.

With very best 2008 wishes,

Sue

Hi Sue,

I finally received my medical files from my breast clinic. The mastectomy histopathology report confirms that the invasive part of the cancer was exactly where the lump I had was (I wonder why I didn’t ask for a copy of this report sooner instead of asking questions and getting vague answers these past few months!).

I feel that it would be best to send you a private message about this. If you click on “Private Messages” on the left column when you read this I should have a message left for you there.

With best wishes,
Teacup

Thanks teacup, I’ll read the private message. Sue