Elinda - this is actually from EPIC and quotes the average consumption of fruit and vegetables per day in the UK as 3 portions!
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17212840
So if that is the average, even eating double the average is still not a lot. So I’m not surprised EPIC didn’t show much risk reduction.
This is why I find intervention studies more convincing, because you can assess the effect of much more significant diet changes, not just small deviations from the norm.
finty xx
Some good points Finty. I agree that women diagnosed may well have already decided to increase fruit and veg. As you say, it’s also not comparing like with like if bloods weren’t done.
The EPIC study measures fruit and veg as g/d. I don’t know what that is, it can’t be grams 'cos I’ve just weighed a pear and that is 200g. They say that the highest median average intake in Europe was 511 g/d (Spain)while the lowest was 231 g/d in Sweden.
They did look at those who developed cancer (all types) and their intake of fruit/veg. They are not saying there isn’t difference but that it is minimal. I think I’ve read elsewhere it says no significant difference with regard to BC.
Here’s the link:
jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/04/06/jnci.djq072.full.pdf+html
I suppose what I’d like to know is what the highest consumption equates to in terms of daily fruit and veg. I need to read this more thoroughly, it’s a long article.
Elinda x
g/d is indeed grams per day (it says so on the tables in the link) - so the median intake was, as expected, extremely low. No wonder the effect was minimal!
Elinda do you have a target that you aim for with daily fruit and veg consumption?
I completely missed that, thanks Finty. Wow that is so unbelievably low. I feel very confused because that’s way off the recommended 5 fruit and veg per day so how can we conclude from this that fruit and veg don’t decrease risk of cancer?
I have aimed at 5 per day until recently but now have pushed that up to 7 per day. I don’t achieve it every day but then other days I exceed it. I also like to make more it vegetables rather than fruit. One of the reasons I’ve gone back to juicing is that is possible to go beyond the 5 per day quite easily. I also find that too much fibre and my stomach feels uncomfortable.
What do you aim for Finty?
Beans and pulses will count as one a day (but only as one no matter how many times you eat).
In fact here’s the link on what counts in case anyone is unsure:
nhs.uk/Livewell/5ADAY/Pages/Whatcounts.aspx
Elinda x
I aim for a lot of variety but the portions are quite small - so I’ll probably eat 10 or more different vegetables each day, but I doubt that would equate to 10 normal portions. For instance I would include in the 10 a couple garlic cloves, a single celery stick, a couple mushrooms - I make a lot of main course salads and stir fries where I just put everything in. I eat less fruit than veg, a minimum of 4 a day, mainly citrus and berries.
I don’t suppose anyone knows what the optimal amount is - but I’d rather eat too much than too little. Plus I love veg, always have, so it’s no hardship for me. And don’t forget my cancer is active - so I’m not talking risk reduction, but a daily battle to keep it in check!
To put this in perspective. I’ve just juiced 2 very large carrots, quarter of a broccoli head and a pear. That weighed 700g and produced 400 ml juice!
I know you need some of the fibre too but I’ve already had a banana and I’m having cabbage and carrots tonight .
Elinda x
Variety is very important too. Oh and forgot I had a portion of watercress at lunchtime.
Interestingly they only count one glass of veg or fruit juice in the 5 a day which is a bit of a blow. I’m not sure that’s right when you’re doing it fresh but I suppose it’s to do with the fibre. If you were to look at plasma levels though I would think the juice would raise it the same.
They also say smoothies only can count as two but if I make those I’m using the whole fruit so again a bit confusing.
I wouldn’t worry too much how portions are classified - sounds like you’re doing really well.
I’ve never counted garlic and onions in my portions but I think you’re right in doing so. I hope so because I eat them nearly every day!
Hi Finty and Elinda, I think that much of the debate on fruit and veg was muddied by the food industry who were making claims for all kinds of processed junk, hence the apparently arbitrary classifications - do I remember that the infamous, radioactive Sunny Delight was once claimed to contain one of the daily fruit portions? I’d think that freshly-juiced is better than any pasteurised ready-made smoothie, purely because it’s fresh. You can have too much fibre… x
I know - at least we not as bad as the US where for a while under Bush chips counted as a vegetable!
The juice is only one a day because shop bought juice has been pasturised, dehydrated, reconstituted, added to and then stuck on shelves for months - a far cry from the type of juice you are doing Elinda! Even the fresher types are still not the same as home juiced vege.
The idea of portions is a bit wrong, it is all part of the 5-a-day marketing. Variety is the key.
My rule of thumb is 70-80% of what I eat should be fresh (mainly) vege, and I try to include up to 15 varieties of vege, fruit, nuts & grains everyday. Of course one pea won’t count, but the idea that you need to have the "portion’ of 5 tablespoons to get any benefit is not true either.
Garlic and onion are totally includeable!
I love vege too and find it no problem to include it. My meals are often a large salad or a stir-fry. The main carb I have would be porridge at b/fast or brown rice with lunch/dinner. I also snack on rice cakes and oat crackers. Brown rice is excellent to keep your insides regular too.
I also add vege to everything. For example, last night I made spag bol for my boys. It had garlic, onion, carrots, courgette, celery and peas in it - much more vege than mince. (Not only do I enjoy eating vege, I like chopping it into little cubes too - a bit weird maybe!)
My mum had a saying - ‘if it grows, it’s good’.
I’m a big brown rice fan too - it has a really nice nutty flavour. Very nice in a salad, it’s a protein source too.
Evening all
Having just come back from a long weekend visiting a friend in France I have decided to try and get my family eating a little more like they do eg. grated carrot plus vinaigrette as a starter. Whilst there I saw loads of people out gathering the first few, new dandelion leaves for salad! They pick them before the flowers appear when they are small and tender - they are obviously not too worried about how many dogs have squirted on them, I am sure they wash them first!!!
Also, Having read Jane Plant’s book I am now trying to have between 30 and 40 different things each day. As you say, soups, stir frys and salads can soon up the quota. I have also just invested in Madhur Jaffrey’s World Vegitarian cook book - there are recipes for every vegetable you can think of, all have the addition of many herbs and spices including garlic and turmeric!
So, lots of chopping to be done! Crunch, crunch!!!
Sue
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Hello everyone
Gretchen - you are such a diet role model! I love brown rice too. I was a bit resistant at first to switching over but it’s more filling.
Finty - you may already know this, but it was a surprise to me to find out that when rice cools it can develop a toxin. It needs to be quickly chilled not left out at room temp to cool. Explained more fully - see half way down page.
eatwell.gov.uk/asksam/keepingfoodsafe/asksamcooking/
Sue - I’m a huge Madhur Jaffrey fan and have a world curries book and curry made easy but didn’t know about a vegetarian one. I will have to get that!
I’ve recently started to use chard. We’re very lucky because a shop near my husband’s workplace sells organic veg. I think it’s much nice than spinach and can’t understand why it isn’t sold in supermarkets. Apparantly it’s very easy to grow so I’ve bought some see ‘Bright Lights’ for the one with colourful stems.
xwelcomex - I think we’re going to be seeing a lot more about pesticides coming up in the future. We’ve gone about 90% organic but it does cost a lot more.
Elinda x
Elinda you must be psychic - my husband was complaining last night about the dangers of storing rice, and although I knew it was an issue, I didn’t know the details. Of course I’ve been doing it all wrong, but thankfully haven’t poisoned anyone yet.
Susie your trip to France sounds delightful. On French ski trips my favourite starter was always the grated vegetable crudite with a lovely dressing - virtually the only chance to get any colour in a sea of chips and brown food.
Gretchen I totally agree - I don’t take any notice of portion size, just go for masses of different types of fresh food. I hadn’t realised how restricted my diet had been before bc, I think it’s quite likely I was severely lacking in some nutrients.
xwx - I share your frustration, but I can understand why it’s so hard to get outcomes for hormone type etc - there are so many variables you would need to start with huge numbers to get statistically significant outcomes for each subgroup. I would also love to see some evidence for the effect of nutrition on people like me with secondaries - it’s really just anecdotal reports, some of which I find quite credible, others not so much.
finty xx
Dear xwelcomx, well your comments on diet again highlight that bc is a multifactorial disease. Diet is only part of the jigsaw and as you say, you still got bc despite your healthy eating.
I believe that a holistic approach is vital for a healthy immune system. We need to consider also the physical, emotional and spiritual aspects in this disease.
I would be interested to hear about the other aspects of your life prior to your diagnosis!
I was told that I was just unlucky to get breast cancer, but I disagree with this notion. I believe that if we have a healthy enough immune system them we can continue to stay healthy and free of disease.
I think this thread should be treated with great importance and also our way of living ie. what sort of stress levels are we subjected to, the environmental pollution we are subjected to, ie. geopathic stress and electo pollution.
I think we need to be mindful of all aspects that can affect our health
Best wishes
KAY
Hi Kay. Quite. Sending you a pm in a bit x