Scaryfox - have you read ANY of the information on the Eatwell site? eatwell.gov.uk/
If you did bother to read all of it you would see that the FSA goes to great pains to encourage people to limit their fat, sugar and salt intake.
The site also has a section on cancer and it highlights the importance of increased consumption of brown rice and vegetables etc. Does this mean that the evil Government is in league with the fruit and veg “industry” to con us into eating more veg?!
The only people who regard dairy products as some kind of evil toxin are people like yourself who subscribe to a position established by Jane Plant, T Colin Campbell etc. And, with respect, you are in a minority. Most people regard dairy as a nutritious food stuff that plays a hugely valuable role in a well balanced diet.
So do nutritionists recommend it? Yes of course they do.
I was being facetious about the shady thing - but ok. If you want to believe that money-grubbing sweetie manufacturers are conspiring with Government to make us all ill then there probably isn’t much more that could be said on the subject.
This Govt wouldn’t bail out Cadbury’s when it was being sold off to the Americans - yet you still believe that the confectionary industry and the Govt are in cahoots? This is the same Govt that runs the NHS and would actually prefer us all to be healthy and cancer free. It is spending millions of £££ trying to stop the nation from turning into fat blimps. And yet you think that there is some conspiracy at work which favours the food industry over human health?
Incidentally, I hope that the 75% lactose intolerance thing is now clear to you so we can limit the perpetuation of misinformation.
I’m not even going to bother looking at the rest of the eatwell site after seeing the food/pie chart. But I do envy your confidence that large governments/organisations actually care about us as individuals.
I’m too tired to argue more about lactose intolerance - it’s late. What does it matter to what degree they are intolerant? If humans were evolved to eat it then only a tiny minority would have any problems at all.
Anyway we all seem to be in agreement about one thing on this thread, that dairy is likely only one of a multitude of things which might affect cancer risk/growth, so if you love it that much, enjoy.
This was always going to be a controversial topic with ladies on both sides of the fence.
I have read Jane Plants book & found it very interesting, but I think (for me) it would be almost impossible to follow her Plan. Cutting Dairy out is only a small part of her advice, with there being 10 lifestyles factors to follow in all (if memory serves). For example - I can’t imagine being able to do a family shop avoiding all plastic packaging! It’s on everything!
I have, however, cut out most dairy. Not necessarily because of what I read in the book, but I was put off milk after reading various info on what’s in it! I’m not a cheese, chocolate or yoghurt lover, so milk & marg are all the changes I’ve really made. I don’t stress too much about it tho…if I fancy a latte I have one & if I’m out for a meal I don’t go looking for the dairy free option.
How peculiar. I am not having a heart attack at all.
I dislike misinformation and unsupported claims. I don’t like people being led up the garden path with bogus cherry picked statistics.
If people supported their claims with any kind of decent evidence then it might be worth debating them. But as always happens with this discussion we encounter conspiracy theories and pseudo-science and misquoted statistics.
This site is used by thousands of women for information.
Scaryfox you may not feel it is important to ensure that your claims are accurate - but I do.
You cited a study in support of your argument but the study DIDN’T support your argument. You misread the stat and the evidence.
It is obvious you didn’t bother to read my post in its entirety - if you did you would have seen that only 5% of Northern Europeans are lactose intolerant - so yes, in response to your comment, only a tiny minority of us ARE lactose intolerant.
And degree of intolerance is crucially important - saying it isn’t is like saying a mild headache is the same as a crippling migraine or indigestion is the same as chronic acid reflux.
You used the Eatwell photo to make a claim about - well, I am not entirely sure what. But then you won’t bother to look at the website and see what the FSA are ACTUALLY saying about diet and health and nutrition. Why ever not?
As I have said a couple of times already on this thread I really don’t care what people eat or don’t eat. If people feel that controlling their diet empowers them in regard to this disease then fabulous - do whatever you have to do.
But when people are told that being dairy free will cure cancer (Jane Plant) it makes me sick. When women with cancer feel guilty because they fancy some red meat or an ice cream that makes me angry because they have got enough to deal with already.
There is plenty of evidence about alcohol and breast cancer. There is plenty of evidence about obesity and breast cancer.
But dairy? Nope.
The evidence may not be to your satisfaction, and I wonder what your credentials are, but there is evidence connecting high IGF-I levels and breast cancer.
I’m posting on a forum, not writing a research paper! Neither have I ever claimed to be an expert, simply posting readily available (wikipedia!) links for DISCUSSION - not insisting they are FACT!
I’m not claiming anything, or misleading anyone - I’m asking questions ??? and trying to start a discussion, because I’m interested in what others think about the subject, and finding out if anyone else has the same fears/opinions as I do. Maybe not, as unfortunately it seems to be mostly you (msmolly) and I posting now!
Women use this site for information - well there are sections of the site containing information yes, produced by BCC. But this part is a forum, which I thought were for discussion, exchange of ideas, making friends, chat, support. I thought we were free to express our opinions, not worry that thousands of women might believe a random forum poster might be some kind of authority on a subject!
I don’t spend time worrying about conspiracy theories. All I’m saying is I don’t believe everything I read (including Jane Plant, incidently) - my masters course taught me to question, look for bias, etc, though it’s true, I haven’t time or energy to scour all the citations of that wikipedia article right now. (But anyone I might be ‘misleading’ is free to do so and draw their own conclusions.) I just (personally) believe that profit comes before safety/health of individuals for most organisations. Sorry if that upsets anyone with a more rosy view of the world - I’ll shut up now. Just call me cynical, and be happy
Hi, it seems to be getting a bit personal now. A shame.
I read Jane Plant in 2003, but found it too difficult to follow her plan, now I am back…
Has anyone read David Sevan Screiber ? anticancerbook.com/story.html
We are all here together fighting the same thing, each one of us does what she (or he) thinks is best.
Be gentle, be kind
Love to all
Maria
I have read David Sevan Screiber. A lady at the yoga group at the local cancer support centre recommended the book. I found it compelling reading. He was a very lucky man that his cancer was found at the stage it was and in the way it was.
Its been a while since I’ve read either Jane Plant or Screiber’s books. I may give them both a re-read.
Personally, I believe it more than likely that it was being on HRT for many years, combined with a great deal of stress, which caused my bc, not dairy or anything else in my diet. I have changed to organic milk/yoghurt (because of growth hormones) but apart from that, I am going to carry on with dairy, as to eliminate it from my diet would cause me more stress. I enjoy it! I tried eliminating it some years ago, when on a detox diet and ended up with a stomach upset.
If I knew then what I know now about taking HRT for many years, I would not have done so. I was told it was ok by my GP and didn’t really bother to check it out. I knew there was a slight risk but have since read that it doubles the chances. That I did not know!
scaryfox - I completely agree with you. Expecting the government to make any sort of comment about the safety of dairy products is ridiculous - remember Edwina Currie and the egg fiasco? Never going to happen - and most cancer charities just follow the same guidelines, with no original research. Govt guidelines will always be to eat a varied balanced diet - just like I have done all my life, and here I am with bc. This will always be a very minority health issue, and I doubt there will be any change in our life time. I don’t expect a link with bc to get any traction outside the bc community - it will always be something those with bc will need to decide for themselves, although I am aware of oncs now that do subscribe to the theory and recommend going dairy free - although I don’t credit them with having any more specific knowledge than a well informed patient on the issue.
I do however think dismissing the link as junk science is irrational. There is never going to be a double blind trial that proves the link - it can’t happen. Even if it were possible, it would immediately be a lightning rod for every commercial interest it would damage. So what are we left with? Just as the links with obesity and alcohol - well accepted here, probably quite correctly - are based on correlations, so is the dairy link - it’s just that the correlations are significantly more marked with dairy. They may be just that - a correlation with no causation, we currently have no way of knowing for certain. But I do find Prof Plant’s presentation of many highly respected, peer-reviewed research projects that she meticulously documents in her book - she is a geochemist by the way, not a geologist - is a starting point. She identifies possible culprits - specifically Insulin Like Growth Factors - that have been shown in laboratory trials to cause cell malfunction. It’s a long way to proving a link, but as I don’t ever expect to get that proof, for me personally, the circumstantial evidence is strong enough to make a diet change a reasonable choice. Even if the chance of her being right is only 1 in 10, that amounts to the choice most people make in regards to smoking - a no-brainer for many people.
If we listened to everything we were told not to eat and drink because it gives us cancer etc, then we would never eat or drink anything. It seems that everything is bad for us these days, but the important factor is that in moderation everything is fine.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19491385 in 2009, reports no observable link between dairy intake and breast cancer in a study of 319,826 women.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15213021 in 2004, reports a meta-study and concludes that there is no evidence of a link between dairy and BC, though it suggests there may be a link between fat intake and BC.
journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=585636 studied 521,468 men and women regarding nutritional links to cancer, and mentions that a daily fat intake of 35g may double the risk of breast cancer compared to women with daily intake of 10g or less. It does not mention a link specifically with dairy products, but I don’t think they were looking at that.
We have considered dietary changes, but are not happy about switching to soy products (which could possibly have a role to play in the low incidence in China) as my wife’s BC was ER positive and there are of course concerns about phyto-oestrogens.
I haven’t read all this thread, but just to say i haven’t eaten dairy for about 5 years and still i find myself here…so i would say that there is ‘no’ beneftit in not eating dairy!
Geochemist’s are goelogist’s.They analyse soil,rock to monitor developments in the earths composition and get information about age,nature and structure of locations.Nothing to do with medical science.Everything in moderation,that’s what I keep telling myself,then the cheese calls me to the fridge.Oh well tomorrow’s another day
Thanks for the links Jansman, they are very interesting. I was surprised about your thoughts on soya as I thought it was you who posted the research on that recently (?) which was positive about soya intake.
I think this site is absolutely about discussing these issues, sharing ideas and evidence (if we have any). I have read postings on this site that have been inaccurate about a number of things. That’s how it is when most of us are not experts on issues. I for one would hate it if women felt that they needed to be academics to post. Let’s continue to share ideas please.
elinda x
I have been reading this thread with great interest because I have just finished Plant’s book, after reading it twice. I read it twice because I wanted to really understand all her assertions. Finty really has expressed everything I feel beautifully. I have cut back on dairy, no milk, butter or cheese, unless it can’t be helped when eating out. What Plant says, backed up by peer-reviewed scientists from establishments such as Oxford and Harvard, is persuasive. I have never been a milk drinker, having been revolted at seeing a cow being milked on my grandmother’s farm when I was four. The smell and seeing where the milk came from seemed to my little mind totally revolting. (With hindsight how sensible I seem!) My parents were frantic to get me to drink milk and eat cheese to no avail, until I discovered milky coffee as a young adult. I resisted cheese and yogurt for many years until about 5 years ago. Since then I have scoffed them, especially cheese, until my dx last Dec. I have gone back to my former ways of no yogs, cheese as a topping in cooking once in a blue moon and no milky coffees. I had started drinking soy milky coffees, which are delicious, but am now worried about nullifying the effects of tamoxifen. However, my hospital dietician said one glass a day would have no effect…but still. As far as calcium is concerned, loads of green veg contain calcium and Plant does stress it’s important to prevent calcium loss in the form of exercise and eating foods that retain calcium in the diet in the fight against osteoporosis.
Finty and Scaryfox are quite right about the powerful effects of the food industry on gov decisions. I remember Edwina Currie telling the nation the truth about the state of egg production in this country and the absolute furore that arose as people stopped buying eggs. She was sacked for telling the truth because the egg industry slated the gov and I have never believed gov statistics since that and BSE, when a gov minister force fed a burger to his child in an effort to persuade us that eating British beef was safe.
The problem I feel is that our food has become industrialised. Our grandparents drank full fat milk with few effects because cows were allowed to eat grass unpolluted with pesticides, and had no insulin growth factors running through the milk produced as an effect of over milking pregnant cows. I want to make a change in my diet and eating more plants can’t be unhealthy. It makes me feel as if I am controlling my cancer and not allowing it to control me. I listened to that clip from the BBC link in an earlier post and found it so depressing that the only reason the expert could say why I had cancer was because I was statistically unlucky. If I allowed myself to believe that I had my cancer because I was unlucky I’d probably give up all hope and fade away. Reading Plant’s book and the excellent David Schreiber-Seven’s anti cancer diet book have given me hope that I can control my cancer not recurring – by eating healthily. We evolved to eat a diet mainly based on plants, with a small amount of meat. Dairy consumption has only been around since farming was invented, not that long ago in the evolution of human beings.
Sorry for the long post but it’s such an interesting topic!! Good luck to everyone on their own particular diets.
Annys
I’ve skim read Jane Plant’s book and found it worrying, but came to the conclusion that the only way to follow her recommendations is to set up camp on a dessert island and have no interaction with anyone or anything modern. Perhaps there is something or more likely somethings in our modern life which is causing this epidemic of cell failure, not limited to breast cancer. But here we are and here we stay and have to get on with some sort of quality of life in the 21st century.
I’d rather not spend my life worrying about everything I do or everything I put in my mouth but it is always a good idea to be sensible about it. I’ve never eaten junk food, and if you ever really look at the garbage ingredients of all these ready meals, it’s shocking. I’m finding it more and more difficult to get food without hidden additives - I even found so called organic peanut butter in my health food shop which contained palm oil - not only is this bad for us, is ecologically wrong too.
My onc and breast surgeon both said the only clinically proven links for breast cancer are:
obesity
alcohol
high fat foods (this might include high fat dairy products)
early menarche (periods)
no children nor breastfeeding
late menopause.
I’m not saying that nothing else is responsible, just that it’s all conjecture at the moment.
I’ve cut down on dairy products, mostly because I don’t think it’s generally healthy to eat too much and I’m trying to lose weight. And I’ve increased soya products because I think it’s healthy generally and has benefits. My bc is the highest positive for oestrogen that you can get, but I still think the soya is worth it (and soya yogurts are better than milk ones!). I would never take phytoestrogen supplements, though.
