Oh dear - immune system doesn't fight cancer - article

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Hi All,

Flax seed, and flax seed oil contain high levels of alpha linolenic acid (ALA) whose side effects are often debated to be cancerous. There is information for and against the cancer risk of the effects alpha linolenic acid (ALA) in flax seed oil. Clinical trials argue both for and against increased breast cancer risk as a side effect of higher ALA levels.
Flaxseed also contain large amounts of the lignan phytoestrogen (SDG). SDG has similar effects on the development of mammary gland as the soy phytoestrogen genistein.

flaxseedmd.com/flax-seed-oil-side-effects-index.asp

Dietary alpha-linolenic acid is associated with reduced risk of fatal coronary heart disease, but increased prostate cancer risk: a meta-analysis.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15051847

Do phytoestrogens reduce the risk of breast cancer and breast cancer recurrence? What clinicians need to know.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18614351

Hope this helps

Linda

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Hello Elinda,
as to whether Flaxseed is good or bad for oestrogen + BC, there is an article (link below), that suggests that the jury is out, but because there is a possibility that it could stimulate cancer growth, their recommendation is that people consume an upper limit of 1 tablespoon of ground linseed per day.
As I said earlier, in the absence of real evidence, it’s a bit of a gamble. Personally, I have cut back on dairy products, but then I figure it’s safer to cut certain foods out than introduce new foods (because even if cutting dairy has no effect on oetrogen levels, it probably won’t be harmful - whereas including flaxseed that is the subject of debate, could be). I suppose there is a little evidence that flaxseed is beneficial, but I’m not sure I want to rely on research that only involved 25 humans, or mice / test-tubes.- especially as it would mean consuming a very large amount of flaxseed, which might increase risk (again if there is any).

dana-farber.org/Health-Library/Are-phytoestrogens-good-or-bad-for-estrogen-positive-breast-cancer-patients-.aspx

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This is the problem isnt it when looking at Diet and BC and why i am now firmly of the opinion and agree with all the major Cancer organisations on their advice and recommemdations of a Healthy Balanced Diet .

There isnt one SINGLE food that has shown any HARD science or evidence to support either omitting or suppliementing higher levels of any particular food in breast cancer prevention, all of the studies that have ever been conducted have shown very conflicting results so i have to agree with Lemongrove in that ultimately it is all a bit of a gamble.

Soya and phytostrogens has been studied endlessly, some studies say Soya could be beneficial and decrese cancer risk, other studies say Soya could stimulate cancer cells and increase breast cancer risk,the consensous on higher Flazseed intake particulary for anyone with exsisting breast cancer is also not recommended because of the very same possible implications as the current Soya debate, Dairy Product fears holds with the thoery of higher oestrogens content, but most studies conclude no link and now possibly dairy products could even be beneficial in decreasing BC risk ,so its all a gamble,a shot in the dark, do we add or ommit certain foods ? are we helping decrease our risk? or are we potencialy also increasing it?

I personaly (for me)wouldnt be happy to make any of my own decisions based on very small or any individual studies ,neither would i want to base any of my decisions on Mice or Test-Tube studies becaues they are just not reliable enough to be seen as evidence to make any reliable judgements , its also worth noteing for example that Paracetomel and Vodca have been shown to KILL cancer cells in Test-Tude studies ,but is that evidence that we should all be doseing up on Paracetomel? or start knocking back the Vodca? No of course not!

So, for me personaly i shall continue to follow the evidence, and also continue to follow the advice/recommendations given to us from all the Major Cancer Organisations ,because i know “when and if” new or any solid evidence comes to light on any particular foods breast cancer patients will be told about it and then given a recommended diet sheet as part of their treatment plan.

I think we all need to remember sometimes, that Cancer Patients around the world cost the NHS/Governments/Tax Payer/Insurence Companies ect Billions every year, Cancer Organisations/Drs/Cancer Research Scientists, are not in the busisness of withholding information re any particular or possible dietry treatment or any so called cures ,Drs, Dairy Industry workers ,Pharmaceuitcals workers, they all get cancer too.

Linda

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I would like to see some research on flaxseed though that says it can stimulate breast cancer cells - I can’t find any. I’ll take a look this week to see if I can track down anything.

I don’t only take flaxseed in relation to BC. It’s the only source of omega 3 I can tolerate (because of acid reflux problems) and one of my medications causes really bad constipation. If i take regular flaxseed I don’t have any problems and none of the bad griping I get with taking meds for that.

Obviously I would like to continue but if there is actual research evidence out there suggesting it’s not safe I might think again. Anyone have any links to the research papers apart from the various positive ones?
thanks Elinda x

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Hi Elinda,
I read an artical the other day on Flaxseed which may give a better clue of what to look for re any of the possible negative effects of Flaxseed for exsisting Breast Cancer patients that might be able to explain a bit more along with the Phytoestrogens issue why cancer organisations advise caution when suppliementing higher amounts of Flaxseed for those of us with breast cancer.
ive also had a quick look online to try and find a better explanation but the studies ive found so far have been behind a pay wall, possibily you may have a bit more time to do a more thourgh research or if not it might be an idea to contact one of the cancer organisations which mention the caution for a clearer explaination .

Anyway,this is an abstract of the artical re possible negative effects of higher Flaxseed consumption written by K**** B**** MD , an internationally recognized expert in integrative oncology.

"When we consider flax and aromatase inhibitors there are two main possibilities for interaction. The first is a general one: flax has laxative effects because of its high fiber content. This could result in medications that are taken by mouth being sped out of the digestive system too quickly to dissolve completely.
The second potential concern is a little more tricky. Flaxseed has a number of compounds called lignans which have some powerful health effects. These compounds are present in the seed but not the oil, so this second concern also applies only to the seeds. What’s been found about flaxseeds is that the lignans and some related compounds act like estrogens in the body.
So what does the literature say about flaxseeds as phytoestrogens? We did a search for recent literature on this topic, emphasizing studies in humans. It’s clear in some test-tube (in vitro) studies that flaxseeds can stimulate estrogen receptors or provide other types of estrogenic activity. However, there are also a number of studies in animals (in vivo) in which flaxseed countered tumor growth or had anti-estrogenic effects.
When we get to human studies, we find some contradictions. There are some studies that indicate possible estrogenic effects.
Flaxseed was found to reduce hot flashes in postmenopausal women in one study. This is concerning since estrogen is used to treat hot flashes. Another study looked at the ratios of two metabolites of estrogen, 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone (we’ll abbreviate this as16E) and 2-hydroxyestrone (2E). 16E is associated with more estrogenic stimulation than 2E, so it is worse for breast cancer. A study by Sturgeon and colleagues at the University of Massachusetts found in a controlled trial that flaxseed promoted higher levels of 16E. The final negative study was in prostate cancer. Prostate cancer patients who had biopsies were given flaxseed until their prostates were removed, and then the condition of the removed prostates was compared to the biopsied tissue. There was a lower rate of cell proliferation and lower levels of a marker called Ki-67, although no increases in cell suicide or blood levels of other markers. Since estrogen has previously been used to treat prostate cancer, perhaps this effect was due to an estrogenic effect of flaxseed. "

I suspect because of conflicting studies available along with the Phytoestrogens issues which remains unclear maybe this is why caution is advised

Hope this is of some help,not sure if the BCC clinical team could advise further?

Linda

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Thanks very much Linda. I think I’ll try to do some more research on this. In the meantime, I’ll keep my flaxseed intake to just a tablespoon.

The studies are so contradictory. A recent one has found that flaxseed has no effect at all on hot flushes. It’s difficult to understand how results can be at polar opposites of each other. The same goes for soy. Elinda x

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Elinda, like you I’m still confused about whether flaxseed is good or bad.
Cornishgirl, could you provide a link to the research that suggests flaxseed has estrogenic activity? I know there are a number articles that say flaxseed is a phytooestrogen and therefore might stimulate ostrogen receptive cancer, but I can’t find any research where this has been shown to happen - whereas there is some research (Goss), that shows it inhibits oestrogen receptive cancer activity.

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Hi All,
The only studies ive been able to find so far regarding the Effects of Flaxseed on Breast Cancer Growth seem to be behind a paywall such as the one below,but it is difficult with out haveing access to the full text to get a clearer picture.

opp.sagepub.com/content/10/3/145.abstract

The Mayo Clinic also provides further info on Flaxseed and flaxseed oil (Linum usitatissimum) including evidence,dosing,saftey,methodology which might help also.

mayoclinic.com/health/flaxseed/NS_patient-flaxseed

I also came accross another interesting artical which is written by A* S**** MD which has somewhat since put me off Flaxseed a bit in preference for other natural and very good scorces of omega-3s which are also found in our foods.

alsearsmd.com/more-fake-food-%E2%80%93-don%E2%80%99t-fall-for-the-flaxseed-lie/

Its difficult sometimes being able to access a lot of these studies as not all studies are free to access and many good studies are often behind pay wall, but i think if anyone is concerned about suppliemnting flaxseed at higher levels than found in a normal diet like i said earlier it would proberly be an idea to contact one of the cancer orgaisations to ask them to clarify the caution and the resons/studies behind that.

One other thing which is proberly worth remembering too though is that more than 300 foods contain phytoestrogens according to Cornell University so maybe its a question of safe levels untill more is known.

Linda

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It is difficult when we can’t access the full texts. I’m going to have a look this week at available research and I’ll post up links to what I can find.

As to other sources of Omega 3, there’s quite a few on that list I can’t eat without getting ill with acid reflux which is why I’m so keen on the flaxseed. I don’t know about the other points raised in that last article - I certainly haven’t come across any research to suggest that phytooestrogens cause feminisation of men.

I’ll keep looking!
Elinda x

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Hi Elinda,
Il keep on looking too to see if i can find any of the studies that the articals are refering too as there must surely be a valid/logical reason for cancer organisations to advise caution with Flazseed for people with exsisting breast cancer.

Ive also just had a look at the AICR website and in the Q&A section one of the questions asked was “During and after my treatment, should I eat flaxseed?” this was the reply below from AICR.

"Flaxseed, like soy, has relatively weak estrogenic effects in the body. Research involving flaxseed has focused on breast and prostate cancers. More research on flaxseed is needed to make a specific recommendation. Until more information is available, women undergoing breast cancer treatment, children, and women who are pregnant, breast feeding, or trying to conceive should not consume flaxseed.

After cancer treatment, studies suggest that a small amount of flaxseed can be a part of a healthy diet. In laboratory studies, flaxseed has shown anticancer properties but these studies are inconsistent. For now, a small amount of ground flaxseed (1 tablespoon) per day seems safe and may provide some general heart health benefits because of its omega-3 fat and fiber."

aicr.convio.net/site/PageServer?pagename=patients_survivors_after_treatment_faqs

Ive decided to email a few cancer organisations to try and get some answers on this as all the different studies/articals advice/recommendations ect seem to be very confusing ,when i get any replies back from them i will post them up.

Linda x

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Hi Linda, Lemongrove and others

Linda - That’s a useful link and as I tend to have one tablespoon per day now I’m less worried.

For most of us in the UK (or West) things like soy and flaxseed aren’t usually part of our staple diet so it’s easy advice to say exclude (although soy flour is used in almost all white bread now). For that reason, they don’t need a large amount of research against having soy or flaxseed to advise caution. It would be different say somewhere like China where soy is widely used - in that instance you’d want research to prove without doubt it wasn’t safe.

I am very open minded about it all but I do like to see the research evidence both for and against.

I’ll start searching on Tuesday when I have more time and post anything I find. Elinda x

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Well I’ve done a bit of digging, and apart from research on mice and petri dishes, the only research I can find was done by Goss in Canada (but only 32 people took part), who found that flax seemed to inhibit cancer growth - but NB he warned that further research needed to be done.
Apart from that there does not appear to be any evidence that flax stimulates cancer - but because flax is a phytooestrogen, the advice seems to be that until proven otherwise, caution should be exercised.
Maybe someone else can come up with evidence that flax stimulates cancer. There seems to be evidence that soya stimulates it, but the theory is that there are good and bad oestrogens. Some, like flax, compete with our own natural oestrogen,(and for some reason), that seems to influence the receptors, and the uptake of oestrogen (don’t ask me how).

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Thanks Lemongrove - you’ve confirmed what I have found to date. I will keep looking though. I think I’m going to e-mail the researchers who did the flaxseed trials with women and see what progress is being made in carrying on the research.

The interesting thing with soy is that everything I’ve read (which is probably the tip of a giant iceberg) is that it’s only when they take isolated compounds that some researchers have found that they stimulate BC growth. Again others have found the contrary.
But what about the whole dietary product - is that different? If soy were as dangerous as some websites suggest then wouldn’t we expect high rates of breast cancer and prostate cancer in places like China and Japan regardless of lifestyle? All this can make your head spin!

Elinda x

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I’ve looked at a paper called ‘Research and innovation in Health and Related life sciences and technologies’ published by University of Toronto and dated 2010. Basically more research is being done into Phyto oestrogens by Cancer Care Ontario.
It states that:

‘There is evidence that phytooestrogens eaten my some women may reduce a woman’s risk of breast cancer. However, this may be true for only some types of breast cancer and for some women.’

The research they are currently doing aims to analysie:
‘information on estrogen and progesterone receptors and information on the dietary intake of phytoestrogens’

I’m sorry I can’t give the link as comes up straight away with a pdf but if you type in the name of the paper you can access the pdf direct.
Elinda x

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Here’s a short article about the research mentioned above. Looks like rhe research could answer our questions!

cancer.ca/ontario/cancer%20research/meet%20our%20researchers/od-ontario%20researchers/may%202009%20-%20dr%20michelle%20cotterchio.aspx?sc_lang=en

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Hi All,
Thanks for the link Elinda on the research being carried out, hopefully it will be able to answer a lot of questions like you say,its all very confusing isnt it.
Lemongrove ,ive emailed a couple of cancer organisations to ask if they can clarify the caution on Flaxseed and the reasons behind that,ive also asked if they can direct us to any studies that have shown that Flaxseed may have a negative effect on cancer cells including any that show any possible stimulateing effects,at the moment all i can find is the phytoestrogens issues and the study mentioned in a couple of articals re the study by Sturgeon that found in a controlled trial that flaxseed promoted higher levels of 16E and 16E is associated with more estrogenic stimulation so is worse for breast cancer.Hopefully i will get a reply soon which might be able to help us more.

I downloaded the WCRF/AICR Systematic Literature Review
Continuous Update Report last night which gives the latest on “The Associations between Food, Nutrition and
Physical Activity and the Risk of Breast Cancer”,i keep this link bookmarked because it publishes continuous updates, and it is the only report i am awear of that regulary reviews hundreds of different studies and is then able to make recommendations regarding breast cancer risk.
The report looks at all foods including Phytoestrogens, its a very long read but very interesting if you havent read it and is a good scorce of info to all the relevent studies being looked at re breast cancer.

“The World Cancer Research Fund/American Institute for Cancer Research (WCRF/AICR)
Continuous Update is an ongoing project to follow the Second Expert Report. In the same
way that the report was informed by a process of systematically reviewing the literature and
evidence, the Continuous Update will systematically review the epidemiological evidence and
have the results of that review considered by a panel of experts that will draw conclusions.”

dietandcancerreport.org/cu/CUP_report_2011.pdf

The second and most comprehensive update report is below.

dietandcancerreport.org/downloads/cu/cu_breast_cancer_report_2008.pdf

Linda x

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Hello everyone

Linda - it will be very interesting to see what the various organisations come back with. Hope it isn’t a stock response and that they actually respond to your questions.

The research I posted about, looks to be funded for 2 years but even that seems like a long wait for answers. Elinda x

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Yes I agree that it will be very interesting.
I think we should point out, to anyone who is reading this, that we are not suggesting that flax has any effect on the immune system, the debate about flaxseed is a side issue, and is about whether it has anti-oestrogenic qualities.
This thread was started by talking about whether strengthening the immune system helps fight cancer, and the article I first posted suggests it doesn’t, because the immune system simply doesn’t recognise cancer.

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Hi All did anyone see that on breakfast TV the other day a women who had trouble with her pregnancies ? & had to give birth to her latest baby only 22 or 23 weeks into pregnancy. I was half listening until she started to explain what was explained to her by the professionals ! apparently her immune system was rejecting the babies as it see it as a ‘cancer’ ? ! certain part of our immunity which would do this anyway yet something over rides it so that we do reach the 40 weeks it was really interesting & really made me think it appears our immune system does have the ability yet something over rides it

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Hi All,
Not had any replies yet on the Flaxseed issues and exsisting BC but will let you all know when and if i do, not sure in the meantime if BCC are able to help us any further as they may also be able to answer some of our questions too .

I did find today a study review on Flaxseed conducted in 2007 "Flax and flaxseed oil (Linum usitatissimum): a review by the Natural Standard Research Collaboration by Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center(which may account somewhat for the reasons of caution and why no recommendation has also been made)the link is below.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17761128

Lemongrove,to get back to the inital artical you posted about and the title of the thread re the immune system and cancer as we have gotten a little side tracked with Flaxseed and BC, i recently found another study which i thought very interesting concerning the immune system and cancer cells it was conducted in 2009 by David Klatzmann at the Laboratoire “Immunologie - Immunopathologies - Immunothérapies” (UPMC / CNRS / INSERM), where they actualy found that “Cancer Cells Are Protected By Our Own Immune System”, they say this finding could help lead the way to anti-tumor vaccinations . Very interesting i thought, and explains how our own cells/tissues in the body are protected by the immune system because our own cells are just not reconised as foreign invaders.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090807091437.htm

Linda