Oh dear - immune system doesn't fight cancer - article

Public Archive
101

Thank you for posting the link to the 2005 study by Thompson, Chen, et al. When I first read your comment I thought we should be contacting Amnesty because we had a human rights issue on our hands.

I read the abstract on your link and then got the full article. My first reaction was that the sample size was too small. 13 in the plaecbo group and 19 in the flaxseed group. A problem acknowledged by the authors in the full article,

" Our study is small and the results need to be confirmed in a
larger number of patients for a longer treatment period before
it can be definitively concluded that flaxseed has the potential
to reduce the growth and invasiveness of breast cancer."

Also, there is the question of duration of use. The authors state;

“It was previously hypothesized that flaxseed might interfere
with the antiestrogenic effects of tamoxifen due to its endocrine
properties (33). However, our studies in athymic mice with
established ER-positive human breast tumors (MCF-7) have
shown that, in the short-term, flaxseed enhances the effectiveness
of tamoxifen in reducing tumor growth, both in the
presence of high and low levels of estrogen (33).”
(MCF-7 is an invasive ductal carcinoma; ER+ PR+ and HER2-)

The word you should be looking at is short term. They have not addressed the issue of long term use. A fact they acknowledge in the conclusion.

“The interaction of flaxseed and its lignan
and oil components with other hormonally active agents
also needs to be addressed in the future. If the therapeutic
index seen in this short-term study can be sustained over a
long-term period, flaxseed, which is inexpensive and readily available, may be a potential dietary alternative or adjunct to
currently used breast cancer drugs.”

I have to get on an actually do some work but I will look again at flaxseed and let you know if I find anything significant. At the moment, I suspect that later studies have been unable to reproduce the results found in this small short-term study but I am willing to be proved wrong. If my suspicions are correct, it bears out the statement by Sloan-Kettering that woman with ER+ tumours should use flaxseed with caution.

102

Think we should cool it a bit. Lets just stick to the topic of whether dietary changes/supplements trigger the immune system to fight cancer. Finty didn’t say that flax seeds alter the immune system, she just mentioned that they may have tumour reducing qualities (and personally I think that diet could have some effect on tumour size and possibly spread, although I recognise the evidence is mixed). The thing I find worrying, and why I started this thread, is the commonly held view that diet/lifestyle can trigger the immune system to fight cancer, when it is quite clear that no matter how strong, the immune system is, it simply doesn’t recognise cancer as an invader (even genetic engineering of Killer Cells, has not as yet worked).

103

Oh for goodness sake i realy wish people would stop all this nit picking at individuals posts and just concentrate on the topics concerned, because quite frankly it realy isnt nessessary or productive when debateing all these issues ,everyone here has a view/opinion and everyones view/opinions are valid but i realy dont like all this continual upset caused when anyone disagree on anything. Can we not just stop all these snide remarks to others and respect different views?

cherryorchard,your post pretty much sums up my findings on the Flax study,this study is way too small to be even be considered very meaninfull and it would need very much larger number of patients and a much longer follow up to ever conclude that Flaxseed had the potencial to slow or stop the growth of invasive BC.

Finty, I am pretty sure that Larry Norton and Sloan Kettering will be well awear of all and every meaningfull study that is out there, so with respect to you i dont agree with your assertion that Sloan Kettering is misinformed or Out of Date so i think that is proberly a bit of a presumptuous statement. However to clear the issue up maybe we should send an email to Sloan Kettering to ask their view on this particular study to see if we can get some answers though i think i already know what their reply will be.

Personaly my own view, for what its worth, diet is important in terms of obesity and general health/well being,but as far as “Cancer Fighting foods” Suppliemets/Immune boosters, no,there just isnt the evidence to support it.

Mel,hope your are ok, please dont stop posting.
x

104

Cherryorchard - I have no idea what the impact of the flax seeds in long term is, and I make no claim for it either, because running these sorts of trials is incredibly difficult for obvious reasons, and these trials always involve very small numbers - again for obvious reasons. There are longer term flax seed (and general diet) studies with prostate cancer patients that have very positive results - but prostate cancer is different in that it can be left untreated in it’s early stages, whereas breast cancer can’t. I just used this study as an example to show that Larry Stone’s claim that “there is NOT a bit of Science/Hard Science evidence on individual foods for helping to decrease cancer” is misinformed. Y I could quote dozens of other studies - but I have no interest in rehashing the same old issues.

But this is a digression - this thread is on another subject that I have no interest in - so I’m back off to the pool for the last few hours of sun.
finty x

105

Hi All,
This is Susan Komens info on Flaxseed,which pretty much has the same view as Sloan Kettering.I think it proberly wise for anyone as they suggest to talk to a qualified health care professional before making decisions about any therapies and/or health conditions.

ww5.komen.org/BreastCancer/FlaxseedFlaxseedoil.html

Linda

106

The Sloane Kettering article about Flaxseed is interesting, but it’s odd they should say it has been shown to reduce oestrogen (quoting the article below), but then warn that it should be avoided by those with oestrogen positive cancers, because flax is a source of phytooestrogens.
The article they cite:
Sturgeon SR, Heersink JL, Volpe SL, et al. Effect of dietary flaxseed on serum levels of estrogens and androgens in postmenopausal women. Nutr Cancer. 2008;60(5):612-8

107

Hi Lemongrove,
Sloan Kettering like all the major cancer organisations job is to review studies and make any reccommendations based on the overall evidence ,cancer organisations dont hold a biast view either way,they cite all relevent studies relateing to the topic in question and each studies findings .

The study cited on Sloan Kettering amongst others which you mention above is also a very small study, i think 48 women in a 12-wk preintervention-postintervention study ,so again far too small and very short term to make any reccommendation for the use of Flaxseed when balanced with the unclear effects of photoestrogens on ER+ Cancers.

Individual studies of any theory cant be interpretated as proof or evidence untill there is strong enough or substancial evidence to warrent a reccommendation that outweighs any other potencial risks .

Flaxseed , at this time has not been able to show strong enough evidence for its use, ie the studies are very mixed ,The Susan Kormen cancer center i linked to above much like Sloan Kettering state

( Breast cancer (flaxseed, not flaxseed oil)

"There is a lack of information from human studies that flaxseed is effective in preventing or treating breast cancer. " and is therefore catagorised as a grade C (meaning Unclear scientific evidence for this use)

The conclusion is the same for Prostrate Cancer.

Prostate cancer (flaxseed, not flaxseed oil)

“There is limited high quality research of the effects of flaxseed or alpha-linolenic acid (which is in flaxseed) on the risk of developing prostate cancer. This area remains controversial as there is some data reporting possible increased risk of prostate cancer with alpha linolenic acid. Prostate cancer should be treated by a medical oncologist.”

As in all scientific recommendations/conclusions , individual studies while important and usefull are not reliable as proof or evidence ,there has to be a clear cause and effect relationship demonstrated with all of the available studies looked at overall.

Linda

108

Cornishgirl, it may well be that Sloane Kettering’s warning about the possibility of phytooestrogens in Flaxseed was based on evidence that was not referred to in the article, but if that is so, I’m surprised they did not cite the research the view was based on. I’m sure that Sloane Kettering is a highly academic institution, but as someone with three degrees, I know a little bit about academia, and academics do not usually make statements without evidence to support it. In any case, my understanding is that the article was a review of the literature cited, and as far as I’m aware there was no reference to any research that would suggest flaxseeds are potentially a source of phytooestrogens, and could be harmful to those with oestrogen receptive cancer.

109

Lemongrove,the question of Photoestrogens remains unclear and that is why Sloan Kettering and Susan Kormen and likely most other cancer organisations would advise caution when considering consuming larger amounts of added Phytostrogens outside of a normal diet.

"Flaxseeds contain large amounts of lignans,a lignan phytoestrogen secoisolariciresinol diglycoside (SDG). SDG has similar effects on the development of mammary gland as the soy phytoestrogen genistein.

Is there any harm in taking phytoestrogen supplements or eating large amounts of foods with phytoestrogens?

Care should be taken in the use of phytoestrogen supplements that may contain phytoestrogens at levels far higher than in food. Since phytoestrogens can have estrogen-like effects in humans, use of these supplements for a long time could increase breast cancer risk.

Should breast cancer survivors eat more phytoestrogens?

Drugs or chemicals that cause growth of breast tissue are generally not recommended for breast cancer survivors. Phytoestrogen supplements have been shown to cause growth of breast tissue in animals and healthy women.

Studies examining the actions of tamoxifen and genistein in the laboratory using isolated breast cancer cells have produced conflicting results. In some studies the two chemicals acted together, and in others their effects were opposing. More studies are needed to understand potential favorable or conflicting actions between these two chemicals.

It is unclear what role foods containing phytoestrogens play in decreasing breast cancer risk. Women can help themselves stay healthy by eating plenty of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and beans and by getting plenty of exercise and maintaining a healthy weight."

envirocancer.cornell.edu/factsheet/diet/fs1.phyto.cfm

110

I saw the Cornell advice too but found it confusing as as I thought that whole grains and legumes were foods high in phyto oestrogens too.

111

Hi All,

Below is a table of Foods high in phytoestrogen content.

Phytoestrogen food sources

Phytoestrogen content (µg/100g)

Flax seed 379380

Soy beans 103920

Tofu 27150.1

Soy yogurt 10275

Sesame seed 8008.1

Flax bread 7540

Multigrain bread 4798.7

Soy milk 2957.2

Hummus 993

Garlic 603.6

Mung bean sprouts 495.1

Dried apricots 444.5

Alfalfa sprouts 441.4

Dried dates 329.5

Sunflower seed 216

Chestnuts 210.2

Olive oil 180.7

Almonds 131.1

Green bean 105.8

Peanuts 34.5

Onion 32

Blueberry 17.5

Corn 9

Coffee, regular 6.3

Watermelon 2.9

Milk, cow 1.2

Table 2. Total phytoestrogen and lignan content in vegetables, fruits, nuts and drinks,can also be found on page 2 of the link below.

dietaryfiberfood.com/phytoestrogen.php

Hope this helps

Linda

112

The Cancer Council New South Wales has also released a Position Paper re Soy, Phyto-oestrogens and
Cancer Prevention for anyone who is confused about this issue.

cancercouncil.com.au/html/healthprofessionals/nutrition_physical/downloads/posion_statement_soy_n_cancer.pdf

x

113

Cornishgirl, this is such useful information. Flaxseed appears to be very high in phytooestrogens, so why do people with oestrogen receptive BC advocate taking that, but say that cows milk should be avoided because of it’s oestrogen content? Oh well, I made a loaf of bread yesterday with ground up flax seeds in it, which I will now have to give to my chickens - but at least I can have my skinny latte without worrying.

114

Thanks Cornish girl - really clear study; it just makes it very clear to me that it’s a complex issue and with not too much definitive advice and so dependent of pre or post BC issues - no wonder some of us find it a confusing issue whilst striving to do what’s “right” for our individual bodies!
I’m still on rice dream instead of milk or soya milk (and enjoying it) and limited amounts of Pure olive oil spread (despite it containing veg oil) until I hear anything negative about these…

115

Thanks Linda for the info. The paper from the Cancer Council New South Wales was also helpful in clarifying some of the issues regarding soy. It is dated 2006 so there is other more recent research but I like the clear way it was presented.

What I have found in looking at research on soy, as with all research is to be watchful of who is funding it ie. check to see if it’s funded by soy industry.

Lemongrove - flaxseed is indeed a high phytooestrogen but it is a different type from soy. Soy is an isoflavonoid and flaxseed is a lignan. The paper above does explain why the jury is out regarding soy and its components. It says that isoflavones comprise largely of genistein and daidzin.
They state that these: ‘have a similar structure to oestrodial,and are able to bind to oestrogen receptors, albeit with a lower affinity than oestrodial’.
So while the jury is out, it makes sense to me to keep limited. As milk contains animal oestrogen and progesterone, it makes sense to me also not to have that. Of course as we know others disagree but that is my personal rationale for not having dairy products and limiting soy products.

The recent research on flaxseed in vivo (humans) showed that it reduced the size of breast tumours. I think this has been discussed recently and that is the reason I opt to have it in my diet.

Elinda x

116

Hi Elinda, I suppose you have to do a cost/benefit analysis. On the benefit side, the only scientific results I know of involving human beings was a Canadian study, but it only involved 25 people apparently, so I don’t know how reliable that is. I also know there is a theory that flaxseed works by having an effect on VEGF and angiogenesis (it could also possibly enhance the effects of Tamoxifen), but again these theories are unproven. On the cost side, there is a concern that it may stimulate oestrogen receptive BC, and possibly interfere with the way Aromatase Inhibitors work - but again no proof. In the absence of proof it’s very difficult to know what to do.

117

post deleted

118

Hello Norberte, I certainly won’t shoot you, everyone is entitled to express their own view.
My understanding of Mistletoe is that it has a direct effect on tumours, rather than strengthening the immune system. Even if it did strengthen the immune system, the article that prompted this thread, makes clear that you can have the strongest immune system on earth, and still have cancer, because the immune system simply does not recognise cancer.
The idea (promoted by those who advocate the alternative approach), that the immune system is fighting cancer all the time is incorrect. The immune system deals with faulty cells, but not cancerous one’s. The whole point is that cancer manipulates the immune system, and micro-rna, so that it can spread round the system.
Having said that scientists are looking at ways of using the immune system to fight cancer, by genetically engineering Killer Cells to recognise cancer. There are also trials going on of a drug called reolysin, which is a virus wrapped in DNA. It works by attaching itself to a tumour, so that the virus can enter it. When the virus has entered the tumour, it effectively alerts the immune system to the presence of an invader, and the body destroys the tumour in order to get to the virus. Additionally, the virus shreds the stem cell of the tumour, so that radiotherapy can get at it.

119

Hi Noberte,
I certainly wouldnt shoot you either , though i can understand how it can feel a bit like walking on egg shells sometimes on some of these threads as i have often felt a bit battered and bruised myself when i have expressd an opinion, but like Lemongrove says everyone is entiltled to express their views and opinions particulary concerning any of the potencial BC treatments that are out there, and i for one would certainly encourage EVERYONE to do so!

From my understanding of Mistletoe, im (personaly) not realy sure how reliable the evidence is ,i havent read the conclusive czech study so cannot realy comment on that but i would be very interested to read the study if you have access to a link .

I know there was a piece on quackwatch re Mistletoe which came under Questionable Cancer Therapies and also a few other articals on other sites which there are links to below.

"Iscador

Iscador is an extract of mistletoe first proposed for the treatment of cancer in 1920 by Rudolph Steiner (1861-1925), who espoused many occult beliefs. Steiner founded the Society for Cancer Research to promote mistletoe extracts and occult-based practices he called anthroposophical medicine. A 1962 report by the society claimed that the time of picking the plants was important because they react to the influences of the sun, moon, and planets. Various mistletoe juice preparations have been studied with the hope of finding an effective anticancer agent. However, in 1984, the expert working group of the Swiss Society for Oncology concluded that there was no evidence that Iscador was effective against human cancers [35]. To date, more than 30 clinical studies have investigated imistletoe as a cancer treatment. The National Cancer Institute has concluded: “Reports of improved survival and/or quality of life have been common, but nearly all of the studies had major weaknesses that raise doubts about the reliability of the findings.” [36]"

quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cancer.html

The National Cancer Institute also has an overview on Mistletoe

cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/mistletoe/patient/page2

And in 2008 the Cochrane review published the result of a thorough investigation into the evidence.

www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003297.html

Whatever any of the evidence concerning Mistletoe may or may not be ,it certainly seems evident as this thread has demonstrated that a strong immune system is irrevelent in relation to cancer ,as the immune system just does not reconise cancer cells.

Just a different opinion.

120

Lemongrove and others - sorry if my flaxseed/phyto oestrogen questions have been discussed before on the thread but I’ve been away. I’m very interested in the debates about phyto oestrogens.

I have found various bits of research on flaxseed and as well as the small study on women also some on in vivo experiments(mice) and others in vitro looking at tumour cells. I haven’t seen anything that suggests it stimulates breast cancer cells (all seem to be to the contrary) - do you have a link?

The other issue is that with soya, as far as I’m aware, it’s only when they isolate certain components of soya and do in vitro tests that they’ve found conflicting results. With dietary soya as opposed to isoflavoinoid supplements I’ve not seen anything that suggests it can stimulate breast cancer cells. If anyone has seen anything to the contrary again I’d be grateful for the link.

thanks, Elinda x