sage and hot flushes

When I was diagnosed with breast cancer I was taken off HRT as my cancer was oestrogen receptive. The hot flushes have been quite bad and somebody suggested Sage.

So I went along to the herbal shop and explained that I couln’t have anything with a hormone in and apparantly some plants have a natural hormone. I was sold some sage drops and assured they were hormone free, which I took twice. I then decided to look on the internet and found that sage contains mild phyto-oestrogen.

I phoned my community cancer nurse who did some phoning around to different medical experts and was told it’s best to avoid sage.

I’m really glad now that I did some checking up of my own now, but does anybody know of any remedies for hot flushes that aren’t hormonal based?

Diddly

Hi there,

I had a similar experience with a Health Food Shop, but they reccommended I took Red Clover. Like you I explained, that I wanted to avoid all photo oestrogens, but the lady assured me that Red Clover was OK and in fact she sells it to other ladies with BC. I felt quite reassured, but when I got back to my desk, I took a quick look on the internet and typed in Red Clover & Breast Cancer. It came up with several reports, all saying that people with BC shouldn’t take Red Clover as it is a photo oestrogen!

I printed off a couple of these reports and took them back to the lady in the health food shop, suggesting that she read them and to let her head office know.

I haven’t found an alternative yet, but the flushes are reducing after being on Tamoxifen and Zoladex for 6 months now. I have a chillow and also mini fans which seem to help. I have a Shiatsu treatment every 2 weeks (acupressure), which I feel really helps too. I’m afraid I can’t avoid Red Wine, so I make sure I sit near an open window or outside when I drink it!!

Good luck

Lynne

Hi Lynne and Diddly

Hot flushes are really the pits, I was on HRT before diagnosis and was told to stop immediately. I was ok before my surgery, mastectomy and removal of all lymph nodes, but from the day after surgery the ‘hots’ really started, had to keep a fan on beside my hospital bed. I usually get about 2 flushes an hour sometimes more. I also asked the pharmasit what I could take for them without the dreaded oestrogens and he recommended Sage, I also asked my surgeon and she said Sage Leaf was ok, is this different to the drops, perhaps less strong? Then got husband and children to go to different pharmacies to check this out and they all said sage leaf was ok. My GP also said ok. This is so confusing. I am on Arimidex only so perhaps it is different to other hormone therapies. Previously I had also bought out the health shop all for things i couldn’t use, Black Coash, Red Clover, spent a fortune on them all and had to give them away to friends.

My breast nurse said getting upset and anxious also makes flushes worse, so how come when I am watching Little Britain I still get them! I had an infection after an implant was put in after surgery, this had to be taken out three weeks later after rejection, this apparently is very rare and they have not had anybody else reject so they also think my stress over that makes my flushes worse, heck I must be the most neurotic person they have ever met, they treat me like it anyway! Just reading about you girls makes me feel more normal, thanks.

Hello everyone

My cancer was also hormone receptor positive and I stopped my HRT the day I was diagnosed. (I first went on it many years ago as I had an early menopause and was getting dreadful hot flushes).

My hot flushes came back gradually and are now worse than ever. I am on Aromasin now and I sweat so much both day and night when I have a flush that you can see drops of sweat dripping off me ! It’s really horrible but I haven’t found an answer. My oncologist says that they simply do not know whether the vegetable oestrogens would cause a problem or not but to make sure it is better to keep off all of them so I am avoiding sage, red clover, soya etc. I have also seen people recommending Confiance tablets on this site so I read the label the other day in the health shop and saw that they also contain a small amount of phyto oestrogen.

I have been thinking about trying acupuncture or acupressure - Lynne thank you for this - I think I will give it a try. I’m also thinking about a chillow.

Suzanne - yes Arimidex works in a different way from Tamoxifen. I am on Aromasin which has a similar action to Arimidex and I believe it is important to avoid any phyto oestrogens. I agree that sometimes being in a stressful situation can trigger a flush but they can just start when you’re sitting quietly also.

good luck everyone

Love Anthi

surfnirvana, I’m really surprised that the woman in your health food shop gave you that advice, or any advice at all. When I asked for the same information in Holland & Barrett the assistant said they were not allowed to give any advice to people with cancer. Your experience demonstrates one reason why.

I’ve been on Arimidex for three years, but only recently started to get really bad hot flushes, rather than warm ones. They can start at any time, but stress makes them worse as I’ve found doing a new job I hate and find stressful. I sit in meetings with my face and hair drenched.

I’ve used a chillow but didn’t get on with it; bought a cobber last week and it helps a bit, but looks stupid.

Hi to All

My cancer is 100% oestrogen driven. Most of the time I suffer in silence but every so often I feel I should do something to relieve the suffering. I had “talk time” with Bristol Cancer Care. They told me not to take Red Clover but that I should try Sage as it could (no promises) be helpful and was perfectly safe with my type of cancer. Thereafter, I went out and bought Sage Tincture from Napiers. I also discussed it with Napiers who said it would be fine. In between times I did my own research and got so confused I decided not to take the Sage. I still don’t know what to do for the best. Incidentally, we are told tomatoes are very good for BC and they too contain phyto-oestrogen. From memory, I think onions also contact phyto-oestrogen.

I wish I could come up with something that is guaranteed to work with oestrogen positive cancer and has no phyto-oestrogen content. But thereagain, who is to say that phyto-oestrogen in small doses is not good for us? Phyto purely means plant and I have heard that plant oestrogens are not necessarily bad for oestrogen driven cancers.

If I come across any new ideas on this, I will let you all know.

Regards.

Jeannie

Louise can you explain what a cobber is please? I’m willing to try anything for some relief.

Thanks

Anthi

Anthi, you probably have found out by now what a cobber is but just in case you haven’t…

Original Cobber

The Cobber Body Cooling Neck Wrap lowers the body temperature by cooling the carotid arteries in the neck. The material may become warm against the skin but by simply rotating the wrap, the cooling effect is rejuvenated immediately!

The neck wrap is made of polyester and cotton and is filled with poly-crystals. By simply placing the neck wrap in clean water for approximately 30 minutes and allowing the crystals to expand, it produces an evaporative cooling system for the user when placed around the neck.

Benefits:

Non-toxic.

Does not require refrigeration.

Stays cool for up to 3 days.

Environmentally friendly.

Can be used hot or cold.

Reduces headache pain.

Improves quality of life.

Improves working productivity.

Re-usable for many years.

Can be worn around your neck or forehead.

Relief from excess warmth is instantaneous.

Great for Stress relief, while city or long distance driving and airline travel.

Helps relieve swelling due to sprains of the ankles and wrists.

Provides relief from hot-flashes due to pregnancy or menopause.

I got that info from a site called benthamsports.co.uk

Re hot flushes, I understand that there are some really good and effect homeopathic treatments - heard of good results from Bristol Homeopathic Hospital.

I think re phyto-oestrogens that you need to consult an up-to-date nutritionist and draw the line between natural sources of these cancer fighting factors and concentrated extracts and avoid any source of info which comes from a shop or an organisation who sells supplements!

Phyto-oestrogens in their natural state exist in infinitesimal amounts in plants to protect them from fungal and viral disease attack. In a varied and plant-based diet you cannot possibly overdose on them and all the research on tomatoes, for an example, or on most of the 20 different phyto-oestrogens which occur in 300 different plant foods and also in smaller quantities than bovine oestrogen, in milk. The amount in a serving of fruit, seeds, herbs or vegetables is only 1/500 -1/1000 of the oestrogen in a serving of dairy or animal based food.

Of these, Red clover concentrations of phyto-oestrogens are 10 times higher than in soya, so if you belive the advice to avoid it, despite many cancer nutritionists’ advice to include it, I guess you’ll avoid red cloveras the plant itself is a relatively concentrated source (50-100 times more than in dairy or meat).

There are now scores of scientific papers which explain that phyto-oestrogens compete with the xeno-oestrogens (potent, man-made oestrogen-mimicking chemicals in the environment found in cleaning products, some cosmetics and many pesticides) and animal origin oestrogen from dairy and meat products, for space on breats cancer oestrogen receptors.

The phyto-oestrogens once installed block these receptors in a manner similar to Tamoxifen, reducing cancer cell activity, so the research goes. This applies at normal levels of phyto-oestrogens as they occur in nature, though not perhaps at the abnormal levels as they occur in extracts, such as soya EXTRACT or green tea EXTRACT or red clover EXTRACT or LYCOPENE or BETA_CAROTENE EXTRACT.

These are to be avoided as the research on these has been mostly in test tubes and not in living systems and supplement companies are going to push them as a way of increasing profits by manipulating otherwise healthy food substances.

There is good reason to believe that our bodies have evolved over millions of years to make the best of these food ingredients in their complex biological forms in food and not extracted into a concentrate, devoid of the accompanying enzymes and minerals and other elements which make them effective.

Check out this website:phytoestrogens and consult a nutritionist who is up to date with and can quote to you the latest research. Unfortunately cancernet cannot be considered as a completely independent source of information as it is sponsored by a wide range of major pharmaceutical companies, but not food supplement companies, but it has a heavy duty medical staff and ethical editorial committee which has a strict policy on publishing only proven research online which you can read for yourself and does not sell food supplements.
Their site supports all the mass of evidence that a diet rich in fruit and vegetables and whole grains and pulses protects us best against hormone-driven breast cancer.

Wishing you well,
Jenny

Having read the page cancernet.co.uk/phytoestrogens.htm I have to confess that I am none the wiser on whether I should be eating those things or avoiding them. I am taking Tamoxifen to reduce the oestrogen levels (I assume) and eating things like red clover and soya products would increase the levels. It’s not clear whether they mean eat all those things to help prevent cancer but avoid them if you have cancer. It’s so confusing I sometimes think it’s better to read nothing.

Anne - thank you for the info about the cobber. It sounds good.

Take care
Anthi x