VERY CRITICAL cont'd

As requested by the moderator, I have re-started this thread in the current issues forum:

IWhen I was first diagnosed nearly two years ago. I wanted people to let me know that they understood what I was going through and to give me practical help, support and advice as I went through treatment. On this, and several other sites, I found the information I needed to understand both my treatment and it’s side effects and found it scary and difficult when debates raged and frightening statistics were bandied about.

However, further down the line, I have posted too many messages in memory of cyber friends, sent too many supportive missives to those dx with secondaries, and frequently admired the strength and fortitude of those who carry on with their lives despite having to undergo repeated/long term treatment. I have slowly come to understand that bc is not a curable disease, that it has no respect for any of us no matter how positive our mental attitude….and that the numbers who move on to Stage 4 (and beyond) are far greater than I first imagined.

I am not a political animal and rarely get involved in debates…but the stage I have now reached is one where I feel that I can no longer bury my head in the sand and live in a pink, fluffy, cosy little world of my own. I don’t trust statistics and know that many people defy the odds but, as a realist, I also know that a great many people don’t.

I understand that Stage 4 posters often don’t want to upset those of us at the primary stage whilst deploring that this should be so….yet they continue to be amongst the most prolific and supportive members of the forums. It sometimes feels as if they are being hidden away….at a time when they themselves need the support most…. and this makes me very uncomfortable.

Annie x

Great post Annie.
I was diagnosed 20 months ago and after my mastectomy my surgeon told me that statistically I only had a 40% chance of being disease free in 5 years. Not really what you want to hear but it was important for me to know just what I was ‘up against’.
I’m a nurse and have always been an information seeker…I have read a lot about breast cancer and my Oncologist jokingly calls me an ‘expert patient’…but I think knowledge is power and being informed is, in my opinion, a must. It is important to know that this disease can recur and metastasise and what the signs and symptoms of that are… I have heard too many women say “I wish I’d known”.
As far as being positive… well… I resent people saying “you must be positive”…why must I, I feel that it diminishes the seriousness and potential of this disease.
You really can’t expect just to read good news all the time…it just isn’t realisic.
Claire x

Thank you for restarting this thread. I hope it will be more constructive than the destructive one it was slowly turning into. As someone at the late stage 4 phase, I was either feeling patronised or made to feel I should not post unless it was under the secondary threads and I don’t think that was the intention of the original poster or some of the replies. It just goes to show how we all interpret the written word so differently .
I would like to think that nobody wants to offend or frighten anybody when they post and I think that the people who do post the stats are people who genuinely find the information interesting and want to share that knowledge. Knowledge is still power - I battle with my consultant frequently with knowledge that I’ve gained from the forums.
At the same time, I do remember being newly diagnosed and how scary I found some of the posts especially statistics but at the same time it gave me information and knowledge that I could use to ask my consultants about treatment options etc and gave me the mental strength to carry on with the support of forum users.
To pretend this is not a ‘killer’ disease, does nobody any favours. (I’m good at the ostrich position so perhaps I shouldn’t say that). I’ve lost many cyber friends and friends from the chemo room to this disease - this is probably because at 45 and with young children I tend to associate more with the younger end of women with bc where it tends to be more aggressive.
I know my bc story is frightening because at the speed I’ve become so ill at but at the same time, people need to know that you can be ‘lucky’ and the initial chemo, rads will mean that the cancer doesn’t return soon, later or never or you can be like me and it just goes marching on relentlessly.
Stats are just numbers and can be used in different ways. Some people like to know their prognosis in statistical terms and others don’t. You have to remember that there are so many different types of bc - hormone receptive or not or hercpetin positive or not and they all frequently have different outcomes and the figures quoted are so often out of date as the outcomes from the newer drugs are only becoming known now and some won’t be available for some years.
Since this country only registers people who are first diagnosed with cancer and those that die from it - nobody knows how many people are actually ‘living’ with secondaries so I can’t see how many of these stats can be accurate because what are they basing it on.
There have been many posts over the last 2 and a half years that I’ve been using these forums where people are now terminally ill because their symptoms of secondaries were ignored either by themselves or their GPs or they were referred to the wrong type of consultant and nobody bothered to listen to the fact that they had bc in the past. If the possibility of secondaries are not discussed then how do you know when to act and when not to?
Being newly diagnosed is very scary and perhaps it is better then not to look at stats or read the secondary threads - I know I did and scared and upset myself so much - usually the headings give it away whether it will be an upsetting post so just don’t read it.
I don’t think people are being deliberatively negative when using stats in their postings - it is the only evidence we have when we are trying to get better treatment and outcomes from this disease.
When first diagnosed there is so much info to take in and it is such a scary disease to be diagnosed with anyway, I think you need to be careful what you read and it is important to look after yourselves and your families.
Generally, people are very supportive on this and other forums and as I said I don’t think anybody wants to scare anybody especially when initially diagnosed as that is such a scary time. It is a lot to get your head round. We all approach our day to day lives differently and so we all treat this disease and the way we cope with it in diffferent ways - for some people, it is the analytical approach of stats and for others, like me, it is being an ostrich and others are realisitic.
Perhaps, I just want to see the good side of people but I don’t believe people are deliberately trying to scare others. We are all in this together but at different stages of the disease, treatment etc and we should strive to support each other and not upset each other but at the same time, if you know you are feeling vulnerable then looking at certain threads is not wise.
Sorry - seem to have waffled on.
Kate

Thanks for that Annie, it was generous of you and helps me feel supported and understood.
I went from primary to secondary diagnosis within a few weeks, and so was never in the position of being at the primary stage for very long. Even so, I could only take on so much info, and deal with the stage I was at, at one time. I have since been able to face reading posts about secondaries in parts of the body that i don’t have, so at least i know what signs to watch out for, etc. A lady recently joined our secondary post and said we sounded like people who were getting on with our lives and could still have a laugh, and that was encouraging for her, so it needn’t be all negative, if you want to have a read of our posts.
Maybe this is a good time to mention that you can block certain categories of discussion. I think it’s a button at the top but I can’t try it now or will lose my message! In this way you can screen out discussions on secondary cancer, or other subjects you’re not interested in, such as treatments you’re not having, etc. We all have times when we don’t want to know stuff, and times when we want to know more - it’s natural.
We are all ultimately in the same boat, as we all live with the fear of a recurrence/secondary, what ever stage we are at. It is frightening for us all, and we are all gutsy and brave for getting through whatever we have got through thus far, be it recent diagnosis, treatment or recurrence.
Jacquie

Kate and Jacquie, great posts, well expressed. From my view point, with primary bc, I know when first dx and starting treatment, I only wanted to know about chemo effects and the choices I had to make at the time. I learnt enough about my cancer as I needed, and I asked my onc for my prognosis, after doing some research on the web, so he could make sense of what I had read. At that stage I felt I only had enough strength and energy to devote to myself, and my own treatment. I did not want to get involved with any thoughts or discussions regarding secondaries. There was so much to take in and learn about primary cancer, I did not want to think about anything further than initial treatment. Now my chemo is coming to an end soon, I still have to have surgery and rads, but now I am ready to think about what comes after. I DO want to know what may be ahead, and I DO want to know what to look out for, I feel the need to be informed, and for this I look to those ladies who have the experience of recurrence/secondaries, their experience is invaluable.
It is a fine balance we strive for here, and on other sites, we are all at different stages, we all need different levels of help, advice and support, and the best people to provide this are ourselves.

Shannon

I once made the mistake of using the term “doom and gloom” in response to a post in a thread now closed. This was interpreted as having a “go” at those with secondaries, which it was not. It was a remark made without thinking how it might be interpreted; I will not, I hope, be naive again.

I have nothing but admiration for everyone wherever they are on their BC journey, but particularly those who are seriously or terminally ill or who have lost loved ones, have difficult family circumstances, etc.

We can read what we want to and contribute if we want to. If we don’t like something, we can ignore it or block the category. But we are all individuals and have different needs and interests even though we all have something that unites us.

Margaret

I actually don’t know what it is like to have primary bc and read forums like these - because they simply didnt exist when I was diagnosed 17 years ago. I knew when I had my first recurrence 6 years later that things were not looking good. When you ask your consultant what the chances are of it returning and he just holds your hand and says we don’t know - then you know it aint good! But even though I am a lot further along the road - when I first came to bcc nearly 2 years ago, and by then having secondaries, I did find it very hard sometimes to read of those who had it in areas of the body that I didn’t. Then I just avoided those posts until I felt stronger. I think after 5 years of secondaries I have come to a place where I am comfortable with my disease. I know I have had a good innings even though I have had so much treatment, surgery, recurrences etc. I hope that I still have much to offer here in the way of support - to say that some of us do fall the good side of statistics. We need to remember that not all of us are good with words - what we want to say doesnt always come out quite as we intended. We also need to remember that some may be feeling very down when reading and more liable to be upset than at other times. We are all so different but we can continue to support and uphold each other thru the good and the bad times. To do that though, we need to tell it as it is!

Dawnhc

Hi girls, all I know is that I am very thankful for the help and encouragement I have got from this site. It makes you feel less like an alien. I only discovered this when I had secondaries. I used to think that I couldnt really talk to people who have just been dx, as I guess I thought I’d scare them and wasnt positive enough! Thanks girls, you have all allowed me be myself, and listened to my ramblings…(whether they are sunshine and rainbows or doom and gloom)

Love Suzy

Hi to all of you. For what it’s worth I just wanted to make a few points. I do read and post on all the threads, and try and give help/advice information and support where I think it might help someone. I do not post much on the secondaries thread because - thankfully - I have at this time no first hand experience of treatments etc., but I can offer support. Surely, this site is here to help everyone, whatever stage of the cancer journey they are going through. And by its very nature, I assume that those that post want further details and information that they may not be able to get from anyone else. I notices that some posters have gone ‘away’, presumably because they are now better and getting on with their lifes. I do try and remember when posting to tread gently and would never want to hurt or upset anyone. But at the same time, we must be honest. As long as we remember that one persons ‘easy ride’ is another persons hell.

Personally, I have always been one of those that want to know! I really think that knowledge is power and I have often found it extremely helpful to see my oncologist with certain facts and figures alrady to hand to have an ‘informed’ discussion with him. I know statistics can be scary, and we all hope that we are the x percentage that do not get a recurrence or secondaries. I used to think that until I found I had a recurrence with wide spread, and obviously my view has now somewhat changed. Having said that, at the other end of the spectrum, my mum is now 84 , having been dx aged 59, so there is hope!

As has been said, if you are feeling scared and frightened, you do not need to read all the threads and just concentrate on the bits that are relevant to your present stage.

I wish all of you girls, whatever stage you are at, the very very best and am so pleased that so many have such a brilliant and positive outlook. My thoughts and prayers are also with those of you who are now stage 4 and I admire the strength and courage you have shown - thank you girls for showing us that it can be done.

Birgit.

Hi Girls

I would just like to say how well put all the above postings are. I agree everyone can read things differently which is why the above posts read so well (does that make sense?!!) I myself have changed in what I would like to know at different times dependent on how I am feeling at the time, so I try to be careful sometimes of which posts to go into as said the titles can help. I do agree knowledge is power. I would like to thank all the people who post on the forums who give us this knowledge and for us to choose how to use it. I am fortunately only at primary stage breast cancer but like most of us do get scared and worry about secondaries etc. But the knowledge the forum users with secondaries give, even though scary at times, does help. I would like to know the symptoms of spread to other parts of the body, not to become paranoid but to be aware and a lot of this can only come from people with secondaries. I would like to say how much I admire all on this site and hope that especially threads like this can be used constuctively and so really help a lot of people who really need it.

I am due my final chemo on Christmas Eve 6>7 hrs, but what a thing to then celebrate on Christmas Day, first part over with. Mastectomy and Rads to follow. I have not been on the forum for a while and sometimes admit I only read but I have so much admiration for those who post regular and give so much support and I thank those same people for the support they have given me in the past and also given me without knowing it.

Keep going and just thank you again. I hope I can strive to be of some help and support to others as others have been to me when I can.

With much admiration to you all,

Take care and wishing you all a Christmas you can all enjoy,

JulieL
xxx

Hello forum members

Thanks for such a good discussion on this very difficult area. It is a challenge to organise the forums in such a way that they give maximum support and information to everyone from pre diagnosis to secondary breast cancer. As you have also pointed out some people like to know all the statistics and general information and other people do not: we need to cater for both groups and everyone in between.

Can I suggest that after Christmas we get together a group of forum members to see if we can answer some of these issues?

Just a thought let me know if you think this would be a good idea.

best wishes

Ann

Hi Ann,
I think that would be a very good idea.

karen

Ann,

There is nothing wrong with the structure of the forums and these were agreed democratically based on feedback from anyone who chose to give feedback.

The forum rules were changed recently without seeking comments from anyone and I think it is the new forum rules and use of the forums that needs to be examined. This needs to be done democratically by submitting questionnaires and not based on the opinions of a handful of forum users. I would like a copy of the old forum rules made available to us, so we can see the changes and maybe reinstate some parts of the old rules? Once the forum rules are revised, these should be binding upon all, including the moderators. Too often, the moderators do not seem even handed in deciding which posts to accept and which to delete. Maybe it is because of inexperience.

Those of us with secondaries believe that in the past, a small minority have been extremely unpleasant to us, and therefore in breach of the rules. When several of us complained, the moderators still wouldn’t accept we’d been upset. How many of us had to say we were being upset before our voices counted?

I also object to discussions becoming severely disjointed by threads being closed down for spurious reasons. Anyone reading this thread would think all discussion had been fairly moderate and reasonable (most forum users are just that) and might not go back to the two previous closed threads.

I still say that the only good reasons for editing or removing a posting that some claim is “upsetting” is if it is off topic or incorrect. Short of putting “PG warnings” on some posts, I really don’t know how we help those who are frightened of the truth.

When I finished my primary treatment, I tried to put it all behind me and talked of breast cancer as something I’d had. I certainly wasn’t reading messageboards like this. This resulted in me being totally ignorant about secondaries and caused a considerable delay in my diagnosis. I went to my GP surgery, I saw the out of hours service, rang NHS Direct etc. without anyone of them realising what was making me so ill. I couldn’t suggest they consider secondary breast cancer because I’d only been told about local recurrence.

Contrary to what the NHS claims, faster diagnosis of secondaries will affect life expectancy. Untreated mets in vital organs could grow to the point where you are on the verge of organ failure. You will still be terminal (I use the usual definition rather than that silly one the Cancer Czar is trying to impose) but will live longer if you get appropriate treatment sooner.

We are trying to forewarn you and protect you, not merely being out to scare anyone. Most seem to understand this.

A proper democratic review is needed or there will be the same problems of adverse feedback as you are currently experiencing regarding Contact Buttons.

Holeybones.

Holeybones, well said.
It would also help if we had profiles, we would know exactly where others are with their treatment, their diagnosis before sending a reply.

Yes agree Holeybones. The structure of these forums is just fine. I recall that the Current Issues forum was set up so that serious threads about ‘hot topics’ could be aired without getting muddled up with the jokes in the Coffee Room (as the old forum was called.)

Now we have chit chat and fun and we have current issues. I use the latter a lot and rarely visit chit chat and fun. If some people want to do the opposite thats fine.

Yes its been great to see the measured and thoughtful posts on this reopened thread…sad though to see some contributions on the earlier thread.

I know that some people like myself are much stronger ‘information seekers’ than others. The US author and breast cancer advocate Musa Meyer distinguishes ‘information seekers’ from ‘minimisers’ and I think its a helpful distinction in making sense of why some people get upset when facts and statistics are discussed. I’m no mathematician but I do think poor old statistics get a bad press. We need statistics to make sense of the world, to plan, to understand, to make policy. If we didn’t count how many children were born there wouldn’t be enough schools, if we didn’t count how many people die of breast cancer then we wouldn’t know how many survive (which is why its scandalous that no one has been counting the numbers with secondary breast cancer and why it is now the subject of a BCC campaign.)

Before I got breast cancer I knew both good and bad stories about breast cancers I had friends (and many mothers’ of friends) and acquaintances who had died very quickly, who had died after a while, a lot of others who were alive and well years later. Only since learning more about the disease have I understood why some fall in one category and some another. I was diagnosed with locally advanced breast cancer and the time of my diagnosis was the most frightening and scary of my life, but I’ve never been any different in wanting to know, gather information etc than I am now that I have a regional recurrence.

In the ‘old days’, not that long ago cancer was talked about in hushed tones, if the word was used at all (‘she’s got the big C’ my mother used to whisper). Cancer patients were sometimes not told their diagnosis, let alone their prognosis lest it ‘upset’ them. I think we are more enlightened now but at times I fear hardly more sensible. Now it seems to me there’s a socially accepatable way of talking about breast cancer…often littered with litanies about looking on the bright side and full of anecdotes about how having cancer makes you a better perosn. I think this kind of talk can be just as destructive as the old way of talking.

Yes we all want different bits of information,yes we all make sense of that information and what it means for us in different ways, but please don’t blame others with cancer for wanting to talk about the disease in a way which leaves you feeling uncomfortable. Cause actually I’m not comfortable with the myths which sometimes pass as truths. Am I not allowed to respond to a woman with primary breast cancer who is scared of chemo and tell her that I was scared of chemo too, and yes actually I still am, because here I am having more 4 years later?

As for a group of forum members getting together to discuss whether its OK to interrogate statistics well Holeybones is spot on in her suggestions. Maybe a group of forum members meeting is one way of getting feedback but there’s stuff like the contact buttons that I’d want on the agenda.

And finally…I’m not sure I agree with you Holey that finding secondaries early, before symptoms, prolongs life…but that’s another debate…thank goodness we don’t always all agree.

Jane

Hi Jane,
I know you said thats it’s another debate but it’s a conversation I’ve had with my Onc…it’s the widely held view of the medical profession that finding secondaries early has no effect on life expectancy that’s why they don’t scan routinely…
I’ve always thought that if mets are found when they are small, perhaps ‘only’ one or two and if they can be treated effectively then that person could live very well for much longer than if they were found at a very advanced stage.
My Onc gave me this as an example of what he thought:-
A woman with primary bc 2 years on from diagnosis, SYMPTOM FREE and getting on with life, has a routine scan…secondaries are discovered and the whole cycle of treatment, hospital appointments, scans etc starts again.
My Oncs point was that it could take a long time for her to become symptomatic from the secondaries, and for her to NEED treatment. In diagnosing them early her quality of life has been severely affected by the treatment and by the knowledge that she now has a terminal disease but the eventual outcome has not been affected…
I do see his point but if I were that woman…I’m not sure…
Claire

Yes, well said Holeybones.

The only word that I can use to describe myself is ‘ignorant’, regarding secondaries.
Now dx, I am on my soapbox so that others realise - but in the nicest possible way.

At this moment, my cousin is in bed, dying.
She was dx 2 years ago with primary - and dx just over a week ago with secondaries to liver - in fact, she has been given 2-8 weeks to live!! Last night, she started her ‘pathway’.
When she was first told of the secondaries, she phoned me and said ‘I’m in your club now’ - words fail me!

I totally agree with Belinda about profiles for each member - this would also help with valuable time on Live Chat Night. It is hard work trying to remember who has what and where.

Anne xx

I have been staying out of this, because I am a newbie and not much of a forum user anyway, so I’m not sure my views should count for much. But one minor suggestion - perhaps there could be a special new forum called the Brutally Honest forum where peolple could post questions to which they wanted no-holds-barred answers, and links to the outside world could be allowed. A sort of “enter at your own risk” place, with a name (like Brutally Honest, only I expect there’s a better one) which would make people wary, and a sticky message at the top to explain the point.

On early scans - just to add to what skimum said, the problem is that once you have ‘just’ one or two mets visible on a CT scan, you very likely have micro-disease elsewhere, so treating the mets early does nothing much to stop spread. When I was first dx metastatic, I had one visible met, in my stomach. I had a PET scan and an exploratory laparoscopy to see if it was worth removing my stomach - and they found more disease in many places, all too small to show up on a CT.

Hi Potentilla

Newbies have got as much right to suggest stuff as oldies so go for it!

I don’t think a ‘brutally honest’ forum is necessary. I think we have just about the right categories now. Problem is no one can ever be sure that what they say will ‘upset’ others or help them. Sometimes what upsets one person is actually an uplifter for another. An example: I am someone who never wanted a reconstruction and though I didn’t like losing my breast have found living with one breast reasonably OK. I have posted about this from time to time, particularly when someone who is undecided about recon posts. I have had responses which varied from women telling me they think my experience belittles their own extreme pain, and other responses from women thanking me. And on that most difficult of subjects: death…personally I am more upset by posts which suggest that dying of breast cancer is unusual and not to be thought about than by those who can acknowledge their fears.

Life is life…a rollercoaster kind of scary place as well as a very wonderful place…its not a happy ever lasting fairy tale.

And yes I broadly agree with you and skimum on mets diagnosis. although I think there is some evidence that finding bone mets earlier can be useful.

best wishes

Jane

Wow I am so glad I have read this thread.
I am one of the primary diagnosed. treated with surgery,chemo and rads.
I often read the secondary breast cancer postings. Usually at this time
of year as I go for my annual mammograms in January.
I am fatalistic when it comes to secondaries but I also want to be able to
know what symptoms to look out for without becoming a hypochondriac.
Thank you all for your interesting points of view. I will continue to read everything
available on this website regardless of what you head it up as.
Jugsy