breast cancer diet - red meat

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Hi Flinty

So pleased you had a good time at PB.

How great to know too that all you are doing diet wise is just so similar to their recommendations, it must be wonderful to have it all re-infororced and I’m sure you picked up lots of tips and reminders also. (Have to say I am kinda pleased too - it is very similar to my diet!).

I would love to go, but am feeling pretty good now and as I only had primary bc, feel that maybe a space would be better given to someone with more active cancer. Would it be beneficial to someone like me, 6 months since end of treatment? Thoughts anyone?

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Hi Gretchen - yes definitely you should go. Our group was a 50 / 50 split between primary and secondary people, and most of the primary ladies had only recently finished treatment. It’s thought provoking, and you get a taster of several therapies that you might want to continue. It is also good to meet people in a similar position, and in a very supportive atmosphere.

Hi Linda
The advice re dairy and meat was given in the group session so wasn’t specific to me. Some of them post here so I’m sure they will confirm that. As I said they don’t say never eat something, and if you want to eat red meat they suggest sticking to lamb. But their advice is to avoid it because of the growth hormones. I wasn’t clear whether they were actively encouraging butter, or just in preference to vegetable fats. The food they serve there is vegan, and delicious, with the occasional option to add eggs, chicken, butter or fish to some items.

finty

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Hi finty,
Am still a bit confused as it seems to be a bit contradictory doesnt it, i know you said in your post “they dont say never” eat something but their website doesnt say anything about avoiding meat or dairy because of the growth hormones .What they say on their website ive copied below. I also cant find anything on their site recommending eating a vegan diet either .

(There is some evidence that a high intake of red meat can increase
the risk of certain cancers. However,unprocessed red meat consumed in
moderate amounts does not pose a health risk. Red meat has many
beneficial nutrients including the B vitamins and certain minerals. The
essential nutrient iron is particularly well absorbed from red meat.)

Their healthy balance diet plate they have put on their website
gives quote (an indication of the types of foods they recommend to include in a typical meal .)Ive copied it below.

Starchy carbohydrates:
potatoes and whole grains
such as brown rice, quinoa
and whole grain bread

Vegetables and fruit:
an array of brightly
coloured vegetables
and fruit such as
tomatoes, broccoli,
beetroot, watercress
and berries

Herbs and spices:
garlic, ginger, chilli,
turmeric, rosemary, thyme
plus many others

Fats:
nuts and seeds,
cold-pressed
vegetable oils, butter

Protein foods:
pulses (beans and lentils),
meat, fish, eggs and dairy
products. Please note that
dairy products are optional
(see page 5 for further details).

I know some other ladies on the forums have also been to penny brohns too,so not realy sure what advice they were given re Red Meat and Dairy but it would be helpfull to know as it all seems a bit confusing to me still.
Linda

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Hello

I thought Wild Salmon was OK, but any farmed salmon, even “organic” was not due to the hormones in the feed they use. Wild Salmon is usually very expensive but ASDA do it more reasonable price - either fresh or packs of frozen fillets.

wish we could get some good advice on diet based on the good evidence that is out there. Cant be THAT complicated can it ?

Kirsty

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Linda

I’m confused as to you questioning flinty’s post regarding the pb advice? Are you saying she is a liar, crazy or just very forgetful? Perhaps the web info is not as up to date as the info on the course, maybe a different nutritionist with a slightly different view presented the course.

The info presented at the pb is very, similar to Chris Woollam’s, who writes brilliant books.

In response to the initial poster of this thread, small amounts of organic meat is probably ok, especially considering your dietry limitations.

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I read this as Linda pointing out the contradiction rather than questioning the truthfulness of what Finty has to say. Sometimes websites aren’t as up to date as they should be. I know that from organisations providing health information that I’ve worked for. Penny Brohn centre perhaps need to be made aware of this.

Finty - thank you so much for posting the information. I’m glad that it was so helpful and informative. Did they give any rationale as to why lamb was better than pork? I ask because I absolutely love pork and I’m not that keen on lamb. We get Gloucester old spot organic free range pork direct from a farm we stayed at.

Linda the research already posted clearly shows that ingesting foods with IGF-1 do raise serum levels. I agree there are other potential problems with a completely vegan diet as it means a very careful balancing of food groups to prevent things like anaemia etc. I’m not sure that’s right about vegan and bones but I’m open to seeing any evidence that proves me wrong!

take care all

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Finty - Forgot to also ask - did they say anything about rice milk and the coconut drinking milk? I’ve switched to organic rice milk in tea which I actually find okay now.

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Elinda - the lamb was preferred because it is a young meat so would contain much less of the toxins and growth factors that accumulate in animals butchered when older, and there was specific mention of most pork being raised inside nowhere near a blade of grass. If you have a really good pork supplier I guess that would mitigate some of these concerns, so I’m sure the occasional pork roast would be fine.

Re the milk - they aren’t keen on soya and use a lot of coconut products, and offer oat, rice and coconut milk in their meals. The Oaty cream was nice added to porridge. I’ve switched to the kara coconut milk for breakfast and really like it - but I don’t put milk in drinks so not sure how that would work.

I think the best way to interpret what they believe is to analyse the meals they offered. I was there for 9 main meals, and lots of delicious snacks. All the meals were a vegan base to which were added chicken (optional for one meal only), fish (optional for one meal only), eggs (optional for three or four meals) and butter was available at breakfast, along with many alternatives. There was never any sugar or salt available. All the snacks were vegan - including a delicious flourless chocolate cake.

For me the interesting lesson was that I ate far more than I do at home - lunch was soup, bread, salads AND a main course! - and exercised less, and managed not to gain any weight. So they are doing something right.

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Finty, thanks for that. With regard to the pork we know exactly where it comes from, there are only a few pigs and they live in a huge field. They are very free range indeed. The cottage we stayed in was a couple of minutes walk away and we had access all around the farm area so we know first hand. I also believe that they are slaughtered quite young as they are aiming for quality rather than quantity.

I love the kara coconut milk on porridge and other cereal. My husband and I both prefer rice milk in tea so it’s good to know that PBC do offer that.

I’m going to try to get to PBC myself as it sounds such a good experience. Sorry to inundate you with questions but what sort of vegan snacks did they offer? Also do you know how they made the chocolate cake?

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Linda I can see how you would interpret the advice as contradictory, but the way they present it when you are there is rather subtlety different from that on the website. They include meat in their list because they recommend organic chicken. They include dairy because they are ok with organic unsalted butter.

I can’t speak for Penny Brohn, but I do know that they used to be more dogmatic about various things including diet and have revamped their approach in recent years, I think probably in an attempt to widen their appeal. I think they were aware of putting people off from coming to the centre, and without wishing to break any confidences, I think there were people in our group who were surprised at how nice the vegan food was, and who will be making changes as a result - so the new approach works. They absolutely do not say you must do this or that - but they make it very clear why it is better for your health if you do - it’s a fine balance between encouraging big changes and not making people feel guilty if they can’t manage it all.

Their approach is very much - this is what is optimal, but life is complicated and if you haven’t got the time, money or inclination to follow all the advice, pick from it the bits that work for you. I think again without betraying confidences, the attendees with secondaries tended to be rather more strict in applying the advice than the ones with primaries, as you would expect.

I certainly came away with the impression they do not recommend eating red meat at all, they just recognize that some people will want to do so, so suggest meats that are less bad than others.

Regarding your points about nutrition on a low animal product diet, I guess some people on this diet do suffer from lack of certain nutrients. But generally people that have taken an interest in their diet have gone to the trouble to research how they can replace the nutrients from animal products - and it is very easy indeed. There are very good plant sources of nearly everything - calcium, iron, zinc etc. And for the few that are difficult, there are supplements. And don’t forget the healthiest people on the plant are the Japanese who eat zero dairy and very little meat - yet have very low levels of osteoporosis and all the other things the dairy industry tells us to eat dairy for. And I would suggest most people on a traditional western diet are chronically low on many desirable nutrients. I had a long private session with a nutritionist, who had all the details of my daily diet, and the only recommendation she made (other than general things like drink more water) was to change a Vit D supplement to include magnesium, and to stop taking selenium as I was getting enough from nuts.

Hope this has helped. But why not try the course yourself?

finty

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No problem with the questions Elinda - ask as much as you like. The snacks were smoothies, vegetable juices, fresh fruit, vegetable (avacado mainly) dips with oatcakes or rice cakes, seeds and nuts (fresh and toasted), and an oaty bake. I think I might have the chocolate cake recipe - I’ll try and find it.

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This is rather long but is the handout they give for a menu for a day. I’ve edited it a bit to shorten it, but gives you the best idea of their diet philosophy:

Start each day with warm water with lemon juice to stimulate digestion. For the same reason, start each meal with a little raw veg or fruit.

BREAKFAST
Fresh fruit, perhaps with plain soya yoghurt with nuts and seeds.
Porridge (whole oats or brown rice), meusli (whole grain flakes, dried fruit, nuts, seeds) ideally presoaked in water or juice with soya, rice, oat or nut milks.
Wholemeal/spelt/rye bread with dairy free spread or olive oil, fruit spreads, tahini, nut butters, mashed banana
Poached or boiled egg with grilled mushrooms and tomato

LUNCH
Mixed salad; dark salad leaves, tomato, cucumber, avocado, carrot, beetroot, cabbage, broccoli, spring onion, sprouted seeds. Garlic, herbs and dressing from cold pressed oil (olive, avacado, pumpkin) with citrus or cider vinegar. Sprinkle with nuts and seeds.
Sandwich with salad, egg, hummous, pate or tinned fish.
Dips - hummous, avocado, tofu, pate, olive tapenade, nut butter etc. With raw veg or oat cakes.
Homemade soup with rye or spelt bread.
Jacket potato with with bean chilli or veg/lentil curry
Wholegrain (rice, millet, quinoa), lentil, or bean salad made with olive oil, lots of herbs, onion and garlic

DINNER

Stew with lots of veg, whole grains and pulses.
Organic chicken or fish with lots of lightly cooked veg
Roasted root or mediterranean veg
Stir-fired veg with chicken, or tofu. Add a little water and steam veg initially, then add oil and fry
Veg omelette and salad
Veg bake eg shepherds pie made with lentils
Nut or lentil loaf with veg or salad
Grain salad (millet, quinoa) with olive oil, garlic, lemon juice, herbs, spring onion.

DESSERTS
Fresh fruit or occasionally:
Stewed fruit
Pies or crumbles with tofu or nut cream
Fruit mousse
Home made ice cream

SNACKS
Fruit, seeds, nuts, dips, smoothies, fruitcake, flapjacks, biscuits (without flour or sugar)

DRINKS
2 litres per day mostly water, plus herbal teas.

finty x

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Elinda this is the flourless chocolate cake recipe. I incorrectly described it as vegan earlier - it isn’t as it includes eggs and optional butter:

Preheat oven to 120C, Gas mark 1

200g virgin coconut oil or 225 unsalted butter
110g cocoa powder
225ml honey
6 eggs

Met butter or oil over low heat. Stir in honey, sifted cocoa and water and allow to cool, stirring occasionally.

Separate eggs and beat the whites until they form stiff peaks. Lightly beat yolks and stir into cooled cocoa mix. Stir in a tablespoon of egg white to loosen it up a little, then combine everything as lightly as possible with a metal spoon and using a cutting and folding motion so that as little air as possible is knocked out.

Lightly grease 10in round cake tin and line bottom with baking parchment. Pour in mixture and flatten the top. Bake for 50 minutes without opening the door at all. Allow to cool in tin before turning out and serving in small slices.

Hope you enjoy it - it’s incredibly light and not too sweet.

finty

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Gretchen,
Please dont accuse me of calling anyone a "liar, crazy or just very forgetfull,"i certainly was not doing anything of the sort , i just found what finty was told contradictory to the advice on penny brohns wesite thats all, and i am confused by it, i have noticed gretchen that you always seem to jump in to attack people who dont always agree with each other, though you hardly post on the subject yourself, sadly melly left the forums because of uncalled for comments like this. Im sure a lot of us here are still hopeing that Mel will return soon if that is what she wishes.

As far as im aware Penny Brohn follows The guidelines by current evidence relating to nutrition and cancer, including the landmark World Cancer Research Fund report, (not sure if you have read the report) on Food, Nutrition, if im wrong i apoligise but i will email penny brohns for clarification on the red meat/dairy issue.

I hope gretchen that this thread can remain friendly and respectfull as i think we are all very interested in this particular diet issue.

Linda

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Linda you are absolutely right they do follow current research at PB - the library there is full of academic papers and journals on nutrition and oncology, including some of the stuff I have been linking to here. But I have to say I didn’t find anything at all that was suggesting sticking to a normal balanced diet including the usual amounts of red meat and dairy, and 5 a day of fruit and veg. I think the only place you will find that is in very superficial advice on cancer and health - anyone who is looking in detail at diet and cancer comes to very different conclusions. You can really tell when you read a website whether it is regurgitating standard accepted wisdom, or whether they have really looked at the recent research and incorporated that in their advice.

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Finty - even better the whole recipe! Thanks! I’ve recently switched to using more coconut oil so I’ll try it with that.

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It was good to get an idea of their menu too. I’ve been thinking about going back to the recipes thread and see if people will share ideas for lunches.

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Hi finty,
I wholeheartedly agree with you about there being lots of superficial advice on cancer and health, and i am aware that the diet advise given on the penny brohns website has been thoroughly evaluated by the Bristol Approach to Healthy Eating and the Bristol Approach to Supplements, they say on their website that close attention was paid to the most up-to-date research and i am very sure that it was.
Their rationale and the research behind their program is below .

pennybrohncancercare.org/upload/docs/893/the_bristol_approach_to_healthy_eatingrationale_and_research.pdf

The updated healthy eating and supplement guide that i put on earlier is dated July 2010 , so doesnt seem to be oudated , unless of course their advise to Avoid Red meat and Dairy has changed very recently and they havent yet updated the guide online , so i think for anyone who may be looking for information on diet and nutrition especialy from the penny brohn website would need to check on this to be sure that they were following the latest advise.

Penny Brohn Cancer Care’s Updated Healthy Eating and Supplement Guidelines
05/07/2010

pennybrohncancercare.org/upload/docs/932/pb_eating__downloadable_072010.pdf

pennybrohncancercare.org/upload/docs/932/pbcc_supplement_guidelines_2010.pdf

If the guidelines on the site are correct and are those still recommended for cancer patients then i am of course very pleased, as this is exactly the type of diet that i have , so am very happy to know that i have been doing the right thing . however i know that people hold very different views on what we should or should not be eating for optimal health, so i think ultimately there will never be a “perfect diet” for everyone, all that any of us can do is to keep up to date with the latest healthy diet guidelines but to also of course follow the diet that feels right for us as individuals without hopefully stressing out about it all too much .

Linda

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I’ve seen the brochure, thanks. All I can tell you Linda is that the Introduction to the Bristol Approach talk on nutrition at PB gives a rather different slant as I have explained several times above. The food served at PB is exactly as I described it, predominantly vegan with no red meat or dairy, and the meal plan I gave you above includes no red meat or dairy (except optional butter). The shop at PB is full of vegan cookbooks, not meat and dairy cookbooks. You are happy eating it - that’s great, nobody is telling you not too. But I will have to disagree that at the PB centre they recommend eating red meat and dairy, because they most certainly do not.

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I’ve looked at the brochure and what Finty has said about what she’s been told. The clearest message is to increase vegetable and fruit to make it the largest part of the daily diet. I doubt that many of us currently do that each day.

In the brochures, red meat, dairy and soya come under the heading of ‘no more than once of twice a week’. It also states that the effects of dairy on cancer are not clear at this time.

I don’t think there is a huge difference between what Finty has been saying and the brochure at all. Basically a vegan diet with a bit of fish, eggs and white meat is fine. It makes sense that at the centre they would offer largely vegan food to ensure that balance. I think what I and I guess many others struggle with is getting the balance between a predominantly vegetable intake and the smaller amount of protein.

Finty, out of interest, did they talk about IGF-1 in relation to meat and soya? I read in the brochure it talks about soya having anti-nutrients. This is news to me, did they say anymore about that?