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Hi Norberte
I can’t comment on the lesbian feminist politic side of things, however, my view is that anyone should be able to do what they feel comfortable with. If reconstruction after mx is not for you (you - in the broadest sense), then fine. I am a strong believer that one should go with what they feel comfortable and happy with. Peer pressure and society’s ideas of what defines us as women should not be based on our “pointy out” bits. Although I only had a WLE, there is now a large discrepancy, and although have not been able to wear one of more pre-op bras yet, am not that bothered.
People have also said “surely you will have a wig”(and I have because I have to deal with teenagers, and it’s more about their comfort than mine, as I am part of the Air Training Corps). Why is acceptable for men to be bald but not women??
I feel that challenging the perspective of others should be done, on all sorts of levels, judging someone on what they have or haven’t got has always made me mad!!
Sorry bit of a ramble, but I hope you get the gist!
SJ xx
I know it doesn’t really answer any of your thoughts - but I was talking to my eldest daughter the other day and we were pondering - if you had a double mx and no recon, so were, essentially, totally flatchested - would you get arrested for walking round topless in the summer? I only had one breast removed, but that’s prob. just as well because I know I’d get to the point where I had to test my theory that you can’t get prosecuted for public indecency if you’ve not actually got anything on display…
On a more serious note, I wouldn’t give a stuff about social taboos - a choice of being breast free is deeply personal and not harmful to anybody - so I wouldn’t be concerned about other people’s views on that. More to the point is your own personal taboo - and how deeply ingrained your own sense of self is connected to having breasts? If you feel ‘all woman’ without - then there is no issue. If you aren’t completely comfortable, then obviously, there is an issue!
I understand that the lesbian feminist issues complicate things further - but in all honesty - unless you’d opted to have both breasts removed as a ‘statement’, poss. body dysmorphic reaction, I feel that the choice to reconstruct or not, is purely a personal choice - though others may not view it that way. Perhaps the real problem is the focus society has on our breasts as being the representation of all things female - and not in a child bearing way, but as a sexual appendage. Do you worry that you will appear androgynous without breasts? I’m not a ‘pretty pink’ girl myself, though I am straight, I never (or very rarely) wear make up, and my hair will soon be a thing of the past… so if it wasn’t for the width of my hips and my definitely female backside and thighs, I can see that with no breasts, my usual jeans and tshirt and combat boots… it would be gender confusing and I would no doubt be called ‘sir’ frequently…
I really can’t give you any answers - but would recommend that you worry less about other peoples’ attitudes, and concentrate on what would make you most happy… being able to forgo a bra for ever, or regaining a cleavage. Not an easy choice, but the best of luck making it!
Sophie xx
Hello Norberte,
I do know someone, though she doesn’t post here, who had bilateral mastectomy and no reconstruction or prosthesis. I think she just found it more comfortable. She certainly didn’t try to disguise her new found flatness. My partner had a single mastectomy and she has never considered reconstruction. She has also never worn a prosthesis. She is small busted and chooses clothes which ‘create mystery over flatness’ as the late Dina Rabinovitch called it (in J’s case she tends to wear tops with patterns or pockets on the flat side). I think she is also going for comfort rather than making a political point. I’m not sure what she would have done if big busted. Not that I disagree with what you are saying. I remember how angry we both were at an episode of some clothes make over show last year where the hosts bullied their victim into wearing her prosthesis - mainly because if the negative comments about her ‘lopsidedness’ from her friends and family (mostly, I’m afraid, women).
Sx
I’m straight, but a bit of a feminist and the whole "I have to have breasts to be a woman’ a very sad indictment of the society in which we live. Are we, as strong empowered women, who work hard, raise the kids, support our friends and loved ones, nothing more than a pair of tits??
Women, who have suffered through operations, chemo and rads continue to torture themselves, undergoing dangerous surgery, further decreasing their immunity, at a financial cost to society and a huge personal cost to friends and family so that they can have a cleavage. The idea that I would feel more ‘normal’ waking up with two mounds rather than one, even if one of the mounds was a scarred and distorted piece of flesh that did not belong there is, to me very odd.
Part of me wishes I had a double mx as on a daily basis it would be so much easier and going for a run would be bliss! But that said, I do enjoy having sexual sensation in my remaining breast.
I quite like my one breasted look, I rarely wear a bra in winter and only wear a prothesis for work related situations. I do not need to make a one breasted statement to strangers, but at the same time it is nothing I am ashamed of.
Here goes the 'we are on a forum and have to be very inclusive part": I am only a b/c cup, have a loving partner and have always been a confident person, I accept that not everyone is in my situation.
As a lesbian who had a lumpectomy 13 years ago – and I was a 40G bra size at the time – I didn’t feel I needed a recon or prosthesis, so haven’t realy had to consider the political (or practical) implications. I had read Audre Lorde’s “Cancer Journals”, and would highly recommend this book to anyone thinking about these issues. In doing a quick google search, I just found an interesting article by a model who appeared on the front cover of an American newspaper mag, with her mastectomy side naked: songster.net/projects/matuschka/why.html – the article describes why she did the shoot, and the many and varied reactions to it, including both positive and negative responses from women who’d had mastectomies. Hope you find it interesting. Marilyn xx
This is a very interesting thread! Just wanted to refer back to some of Sophie’s (triphazard) chat with her daughter. Since my bilat Mx, no recons, I also have wondered whether it is indecent for me to appear topless. When I go for appts they quickly pull the curtain round me - its so weird - what I haven’t got or the empty spaces, are what people are concerned with. Is it what people with amputations feel like? But when you have a part of you that is so redolent of sexuality/nurturing etc etc removed, exposing the site might be different to exposing the site of a lost limb. I’m not really saying anything - just musing. Its great to have a forum for pursuing thoughts that are a bit ‘strong’ for family & friends (for mine any rate). Thanks Marilyn for the link - interesting article.
Cheers
Maggy
This is a fascinating thread. I suppose the reason I choose to use prostheses is that I don’t want the fact I’ve had breast cancer announced to the world. I’m not ashamed of it and will openly discuss but nor does it define who I am. I prefer to see my own silhouette with prostheses - small ones nothing like my 38G breasts. In the evening I don’t wear any. When I sat topless in bed reading I unconsciously pulled up the bedcover to hide my scars and my lovely husband told me I never needed to do that.
I’ve had a double mastectomy and was very surprised when after examination by the male surgeon my BCN felt it necessary to cover me as though I had breasts. I know the thinking behind it was to maintain my dignity but it felt very odd indeed as though I was exposing myself. That ties is with the comment about walking around topless.
I had a couple of unfortunate incidents of people commenting and staring when I wore my scarf after chemo. I’m the sort of person that clings to the wall at parties so it made me very self conscious. However as I had seromas and wound healing problems post mastectomy I went out and about without prostheses for 6 months. Unless you dress in an obvious way no-one really notices.
Elinda
Interesting thread, today also saw the start of a debate on the controversy surrounding facebook removing Anna Antell’s Mastectomy pictures from her “Dear Cancer” page as they were branded obscene. These pictures were shown recently in Oxford as part of a photographic exhibition.
interesting thoughts.
at skool i was well developed and had a very small frame, but boobs, 30e at age 15, after years of increasing they were 30j boobs and hated them, bullied at skool, comments at work, and in pubs ect ect… 2 years ago i went private and had a reduction but 30gg still!! i had wanted to go to a dd, but i was put into proportion for my frame!!! this was the choice of the surgeon, not me. i haven’t really liked them since. they to me are a source of added stress.
then aug i find a lump, which they thought was scar tissue, nope, im not that lucky!! i had a lumpectomy and also quite a lot of surrounding tissue removed so some reckon was done at the same time… so i still hate them. if i could have lost them so i didn’t have to have cemo i would have . that wasnt an option.
so for me, they have been a source of badness for years. they do make me feel feminine, but i have a very love hate relationship with them
hair, for me was a bigger issue, how could i be me without my funky hair style and eyelashes. !!! i decided i would choose when my hair went, so clippers out sat, week after first fec and its gone. and i feel fab. wig i hate, hats i prefer. i also wouldn’t mind going commando. but the world does not think that girls should have a bald head. if i wear the wig it will be so others don’t feel awkward.
so, in conclusion, we all have our own thoughts but to some degree do stuff to please others and to conform. but as long as we individually are pleased with how we conduct our lives and come to certain choices thats fine. xx its not about being gay or straight, its about being yourself
kazx
Just to support what most have said here - what a woman who has been through this chooses to do is entirely that - Her choice. BUT society & friends/family do make you feel that you have to conform to the “norm” - I have to say & not glibly that I ran upstairs earlier & realised how wonderful it was NOT to have this appendage bouncing on my MX side & how much more comfortable life would be without any breasts. I am large - 38G and the years plus late pregnancy & breastfeeding have not been kind so they were very saggy. I can really see from a comfort point of view plus just not having the bother of fitting prostesis that to go breast free is appealing. At the moment I cannot wear even my softie as I have wound issues and even with my uneveness I have been out wearing fairly normal albeit loose tops & not worried about people looking as I wasn’t going to let how I looked stop me from doing things I wanted to do.
In addition to go through further surgery after treatment is a lot to ask of our bodies. I do feel pressure to get a recon done but I also think it may be about trying to feel like I always have with as close to my old body as is possible to enable me to put the BC behind me somehow. In addition my scar is likely to be quite unsightly as I have had so many issues with healing & swelling so it will never be a flat line but more of a distorted lumpy grin across my chest. That said I know my OH would be happy whatever I decided to do as it’s my body & he loves ME & as long as I am happy - he is happy
I suppose for men it would be similar to having a prosthetic testicle after testicular cancer. some feel it is an important part of their full recovery to have their body back to how it was before the disease.
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Hi Norberte
While breasts are loaded with cultural significance etc some of which may be deemed oppressive to women they are also a normal part of our bodies. If I lost any part of my body and it was possible to have that replaced or a prosthesis I would want it. I don’t see having a reconstruction or wearing a prostheses as being pressure to look perfect as a woman. Perhaps my viewpoint is that I don’t want to particularly want to stand out as being different as far as my looks go.
The failure to provide reconstructions to some women is belittling the psychological and emotional impact of losing part of the body. I think we also perhaps need to be careful not to subscribe to the idea that a woman wanting a reconstruction is just feeling implicit pressure to be a perfect woman. I do wonder is it the sheer number of women who need reconstructions the issue? Perhaps easy for PCTs to dismiss this as a cosmetic rather than health saving/giving procedure.
I’m not really sure what a feminist is although I expect my family would probably call me one. Perhaps I’m being ignorant here but I can’t see what difference it makes whether one is a lesbian, bisexual or straight?
Elinda
Another thought, there must be so many women who are living without one or both of their breasts or part of their breast missing. I’ve no idea of the figure but must be in the thousands in the UK alone. How often has anyone ever seen any pictures of this? I recall seeing one feature in a Sunday Times magazine but nothing else.
Are we really too frightening to be seen?
Hi Norberte
I completely take your point about the testicle issue - yes they absolutely do not have the same sexual, social, loaded significance that breasts do and therefore it is not the same issue, I just threw that in there as I was thinking about the individual perspective (as you mentioned) in that for some men the loss of that part of their body has a huge impact on them psycologically even though, unlike breasts, they are a generally hidden part of the body - one whch some would say - what difference would it make - you can’t see them. But for those individials it is vital they are replaced in dome form to give the “semblance” of regaining what was lost. And as a compartor to the loss of breasts for many women this is how they feel. The issue for them may not be loaded with “significance” other than a replacement body part just as a limb or facial reconstruction (thought of course limbs do have a practical use!)
I do think this is a facinating debate and it really did make me think about wider issues. I have seen images of women who tatoo their scars etc saying “this is me now” and I understand that attitude. This is not a simple issue but taps into the whole seam of acceptance, denial, public statementing, women’s social position - the list goes on.
Breasts ARE symbolic of womanhood and I don’t think we will ever move away from that, just as the Penis is a symbol of manhood and so I see the utter significance of a decision to go breast free in that context.
I do accept utterly that it will in many cases be a different attitude for lesbians & bisexuals as they already face social challenges associated with their sexuality. As a straight woman I only understand this from the perspective of my many friends who are lesbian and would never assume I understood the issues fully as I will never experience them. Just as somebody who has not experienced BC and in particular having an MX will Never truly understand what that experience is like.
dome was a typo - it was meant to sat some (just in case you thought I meant they should have dome shaped testicles as their replacement! - Sorry!!!
Good point I hadn’t thought of the challenges already being faced by lesbians in terms of sexuality.
What I was thinking is that we are all individuals. I know some lesbians who are extremely body conscious (and body critical) in a way that seems to make them conform to societal norms more than many straight women I know. I know others who are not a bit like that. The same goes with straight women.
Bizarrely when I was in hospital the woman next to me asked what I’d had done. when I said a double mastectomy she replied ‘lucky you’. I was really shocked but she explained how much she hated her breasts, she’d already had a reduction and wished she didn’t have any.
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I brought this subject up with a few friends, (two lesbian couples), to see what they thought, as I think this is a fascinating issue. Well - their takes on it were as different as the views on here towards recon!
One firmly said that if she lost both breasts, she would not bother with recon, as it would only be to satisfy society that she still conformed to the stereotypical image of ‘womanhood’. She does have quite large breasts (and no, she is fine with me commenting, I did ask!!), and I got the impression that she would find it quite liberating to be able to run/dance without knocking people out…
Another (not her partner) had the complete opposite view - she would want recon, immediately, and this was very much to do with her sexuality. She felt that society already tries to assume that she ‘wants to be a man’ because of her sexual orientation, and for her, having breasts was terribly important to her, to reinforce that no, she might be a lesbian, but she was ALL woman, and to her, having breasts is the main outward sign of femininity.
It did get quite heated…lol…(and the other two girls had views that fell somewhere in between), but what none of us could really figure out was how we could truly tell what ‘we’ felt, and what society has ‘taught’ us to feel, which is quite a scary concept in its own right…
Sophie xx
I should perhaps add, that none of these women have, or have had bc (and please god they never will), and I know firsthand that the reality of mx can make us question our previously held thoughts - beforehand I was adamant that I would have recon and have a great pair at the end of it. I think I still prob. will, but I am not in the least horrified by my flat side, as I thought I would be - in fact, it’s surprisingly neat and tidy and I don’t miss wearing a bra one bit… (lopsided all my life, me - and it’s the big un that’s gone!).
Sophie