Yes Daphne Your post summarised exactly how I was feeling when I read David’s post.
Thank you.
Jane
Please stick to this forum Dear all
Obviously this topic is producting some controversy. I have locked the thread Daphne started in the ‘men diagnosed with breast cancer.’ forum as it is more appropriate to have this sort of debate in this forum.
Best wishes
Moderator
Breast Cancer care
Daphne I agree with you. The word ‘bully’ is an emotive term and, I may say, extremely hurtful.
I have read and, indeed, re-read both of my earlier posts several times and can find nothing either explicit or implicit which can be construed as bullying. I might suggest that you do the same.
Regards
Jim
Remember the Code of Conduct Please can I ask posters to this thread to remember the code of conduct points 1 and 2. Here they are:
1 Respect. Breast Cancer Care online community is about the sharing of information and support. We recognise that at times user’s views will differ. It is important for users to recognise, acknowledge and respect the values and beliefs of others. If you disagree with what someone has said then make sure you argue the issue and not the person.
2 Rudeness will not be tolerated, do not threaten, embarrass or be disrespectful to other users or Breast Cancer Care staff.
I appreciate feelings are running high on this issue but please remember these points when you are posting.
Best wishes
Moderator
Breast Cancer Care
the point I think the point Daphne was making is that some of us (no not all, but some of us) feel patronised and bullied when we are ‘corrected’ for using the phrase women with breast cancer or similar, when it is perfectly appropriate to do so.
I have been using these forums very regularly for over two years and I have noticed this irritating correction happening several times. I have often seen women apologising to men but can’t recall ever seeing a man apologise to a woman when she has said how she felt about such a ‘put-down.’
I am sure that David did not intend to bully or patronise but that is not the point. It is impact which counts and the impact of such insenstive remarks about a woman’s experience of breast cancer is irritating at best and hurtful at worst.
I do by the way respect the work that men who use these forums have done in raising awareness of issues for men with breast cancer. However this does not mean that I think men are always right in the way they articulate these issues.
Jane
I’m sure nobody intends to bully or patronise anybody else, but, as Jane points out, some of us do find the language used by some men to “correct” women’s behaviour when they talk about women’s experience of breast cancer, patronising and bullying in tone. As I said, I don’t suppose it’s intended in that way, but that is how it comes across to some women.
I’m sorry that Jim finds my use of the word “bully”, hurtful, but I don’t apologise for using the word because it genuinely expresses how I feel about what was said.
I think there is a tendency for some men using this forum to promote the cause of men with breast cancer by drumming into women the “men get breast cancer too” message at every opportunity like we’re naughty school girls and we need educating to use the correct terminology.
That’s not how you win friends and effectively influence people. I congratulate the men for raising awareness that men get breast cancer. But I ask you please to be more careful about the words you use when raising this awareness because the tone you use can alienate and undo the good you are trying to do.
I appreciate that some people will find this a controversial and uncomfortable subject, but I hope that a reasonable and open debate will clear the air for both men and women.
Jane and Daphne I agree and couldn’t put it any better than you.
We are all aware that men can suffer from this dreadful disease and I am full of respect for the way people on this forum are doing a good job in raising awareness amongst the general public. But I feel that the male posters have seen an offence of omission where none was meant and, dare I say it, overreacted?
Anne
I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this one…lets try not to forget what the original topic was about…the media minimising breast cancer…i think that we all agree that is what the Daily Mail appeared to do with this article.
has anyone read the comments posted to the subject on Daily Mail site…the surgery procedure it’s self has been slated by a Doctor.
karen
Have a good week-end Karen is perfectly correct.
However, I felt my responses to be illustrative in some small way of the pressures that a man suffering from the same disease and having gone through the trauma of the identical treatment regime (although, admittedly, being only 1 of the300 men per year who draw the short straw - thank you for the reminder, Jane). Equally, I felt my comments to be respectful and courteous. I am dismayed at the reaction which has followed - I am not a bully, nor did I over-react.
Have a good week-end all.
Regards
Jim
Well anytime a woman posts about women and breast cancer, the point is rammed home that MEN GET IT TOO. We know that, but don’t have to include men in every post we make. Several issues do NOT affect men at all.
If men have an issue with the press not acknowledging male breast cancer, take it up with the editor, don’t pick fights with us women.
they didnt print it Have just checked the daily mail website, and so far they havent printed my comments,. Sometimes wonder why I bother. Ahhh well it was worth a shot.
take care
Karenanne:-(
Daphne, Jane and RMW26 summed this up well - so will not repeat - just wanted to say I agree with their words.
Breast cancer is not an easy beast to divide up nicely. Its is NOT either appropriate to just refer to female /male disease - WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT. Haven’t “guessed” the figures properly from the stats but I estimate my diagnosis of HER2+++. Oestrogen+ premenopausal disease put me in something like a 1 of 400 pa category (the 1 of 300 pa men often being quoted) , others can do likewise with their specific disease (?? "inital diagnosis with secondary disease)
Going back (sort of) to the original post - the problem is the press and the way that any story relating to breast cancer is presented. It is response directly to these that is needed - letters with multiple signatures (as Daphne organised to go to Good Housekeeping (?) a while ago) may be more of a “lever” for publication - but thats no longer an easy option with the lack of direct contact facilities here (BCC please take note).
October looms - when will the pink frenzy start.
Ah well. I apologise for the fact that my comments provoked such a reaction. No slight was intended. I simply took issue with the initial propositon that if ‘the boot was on the other foot’ things would be different. The fact of the matter is ‘that it is’ and ‘it aint’!
I am not a bully. I did not over-react. I certainly do not pick fights with women. I am sad that you perceive me as such.
Regards
JIm
Apology accepted. Anne
I am sorry Dear Jim,
I am so sorry for all the flack you got through my “other foot” comment. I should have been more thoughtful in my words, but the heat of the moment got me caught up. My mother always told me to put my brain in gear before I speak.
To all the ladies that supported me I thank you, but Jim was right I did not think before I wrote. I didnt realise that my comments could cause such offense. Even though I agree with you all,. Although the point of the article was about the media mimminsing breast cancer, and trivilising what we all go through men and women.
please accept my apologies,
take care
karenanne:-)
Karenanne Thats good of you - thanks.
I was not offended by your comment but by those of others which followed. Let’s not travel down that road again, though. Its a sunny start to the day…Italy won the World Cup (which meant that I am now a few quid better off)…I’m off to the gym for a swim (well, a spell in the jacuzzi really!).
Have a good week.
Jim
Has anything changed? There’s been a flurry of apologies, but will anything change?
Jim took my reference to bullying personally whereas I didn’t specifically use the term against any individual, but against the tone of communications directed by some men at women over many months when the men have “corrected them for not mentioning that men get breast cancer too. In this thread, it was David’s comment that triggered off the reactions from women that then upset Jim. It’s important to note that these “corrective” comments directed at women have cropped up fairly regularly over many months and It’s obvious that the comments have rankled with some of us and it’s got to the point where we’ve had to speak out . The reactions displayed in this thread are not just the result of what was said here, but the result of frustration that has built up over many months.
I appreciate that Jim found what was said hurtful and offensive, so much so, that he mentions in a post in the men’s forum that he sometimes had to walk away from the computer due to some of the comments posted in this thread. No doubt the same has applied in the past to women who have been upset by some of the critical posts from men over many months.
Why do some men using this forum seem to assume that the women who use it don’t realise or have to be constantly reminded that men get breast cancer? Of course we know men get breast cancer. Part of the forum was specifically set up for men with BC. I can’t remember ever assuming that men didn’t get breast cancer. When I was attending clinic appointments before my diagnosis, I remember wondering whether the men I saw in the waiting rooms were there as husbands or partners or whether they were patients with breast problems. I’m sure I’m not the only woman who has always understood that both men and women have mammary tissue, therefore men can get BC as well as women.
RMW26 is spot on. If men with BC have an issue with it being overlooked by the media, take it up with them. Stop harassing women when they post about women’s experience of breast cancer.
Some of the men using this forum seem to have self-appointed themselves as public representatives of all men with breast cancer. They are probably the only men with BC that many women with BC have encountered. That’s the case with me. Unfortunately, when I do meet a man with BC “in the flesh, I’m going to immediately wonder whether he is going to keep going on about men getting breast cancer and monitor everything I say to make sure I don’t use the “women word. I shall have to make sure I form my opinion from meeting him and forget the opinions I’ve formed from reading the posts of men here.
The men using this forum make it quite clear to the women that they expect us to help raise awareness that men get breast cancer and I’m sure that most of us do that already, but it can’t just be one way traffic. When the men do interviews to raise awareness of breast cancer in men, do they always take the opportunity to raise awareness of the devastating numbers of women affected by breast cancer and do they remember to mention the horrors of the experience for women as well as men?
So where do we go from here? I think there is a fundamental problem in that some men using this forum tell the women that breast cancer is the same for men and women, yet, by some of the comments they make, it seems to me that they regard breast cancer as worse for men than women. The psychological experience for men is different because the disease primarily affects women and most people, including medical professionals, don’t meet many men with breast cancer, but that doesn’t mean it’s worse for men.
Some men also seem to think mastectomy is just as devastating for men as women. I don’t presume to say whether it is or not, but just make the observation that women’s breasts play a much greater part in their lives than men’s breasts do in theirs. Breasts are a major erogenous zone for many women. I don’t believe they are for men. I don’t think male breast stimulation features much in sex scenes in films does it? Women’s breasts are used to feed their babies and play a part in mother-baby bonding. Men experience none of this so I believe the psychological experience of a mastectomy for a woman is very different to the experience for a man.
My perception of male involvement in the forum outside the Men with Breast Cancer section, is that they police what women say to make sure they avoid the term “women with breast cancer. I know that the men support women on this forum as well, but, rightly or wrongly, my impression is that the majority of posts from men, directed at women, are to take issue with terminology used by women. As has been said in this thread, when women are discussing women’s experience of breast cancer or media articles which refer only to women, why should they be expected to refer to men every time?
I think one way for men with BC to maintain women with BC’s awareness is not to keep reminding them that men get it – we know, but, if they want to engage with women outside the men’s section, discuss issues with us in context. Don’t jump in and twist the discussion to cover the male angle all the time. It then becomes normal for all of us to treat breast cancer as a disease that affects people, not just women, and it achieves that in a more friendly and constructive way than criticising women for the words they use.
Whether or not any men reading this will alter their behaviour, I have no idea. The reason I have such strong views on the matter is that, like most women, I expect to be to be treated as an equal by men and I cannot stand by and say nothing when I see men adopting a patronising and bullying tone when talking to women and I’ve seen a number of examples of this on the forum over many months.
If some men continue to police women’s posts and jump on them if they use terms such as “women with breast cancer, they should expect to be picked up on this by women like me. But this can be avoided if, in future, all of us, men and women, take more care about how we interact with each other and then we shouldn’t feel the need to try to police what other people say. Let’s see what happens.
Thank you Daphne.
It’s not all about this particular thread.
Beautifully put.
Belinda…x
Sad women. Actually having just read David’s latest posting to the ‘‘Hi’’ thread in the Men’s forum I have just realised I’m obviously one of the sad women with too much time on my hands and with nothing better to do.
It’s SO not just about this particular thread!
Belinda.
Thanks for removing the post in the Men’s forumBCC. Thanks.
Belinda.